Hike taxes more, Board urges

[species5618w]

I think we need to really look at privatizing some parts of our govt.

Even the Europeans have done it...

I agree. However, as long as the unions (including the college of physicians) are protected by the government, we will forever face a bottomless money pit.

 

[theman23]

Thousands if not tens of thousands would line up to move to Canada. We pay them $30000 a year, bang, no health care problem anymore. Public transit drivers, $12000 a year, we will have enough of them moving people on tricycles.

Only to have half those doctors quit when they realize they can make more money driving around taxis than healing the sick.

I agree. However, as long as the unions (including the college of physicians) are protected by the government, we will forever face a bottomless money pit.

Oh, so you think physicians would make less money in a private system?

 

[species5618w]

Only to have half those doctors quit when they realize they can make more money driving around taxis than healing the sick.

So what, we got the other half. We can also require them to heal the sick for 5 years as part of the immigrantion condition. In the end, we have a much bigger pool of doctors and the costs of medical care will drop significantly.

oh, so you think physicians would make less money in a private system?

No, I don't think so as long as the college of physicians limit the number of doctors here. Did you know that they paid UofT a load of money to admit less medical students? The private system has to have the power to hire qualified doctors that are not members of the college of physicians.

 

[theman23]

So what, we got the other half. We can also require them to heal the sick for 5 years as part of the immigrantion condition. In the end, we have a much bigger pool of doctors and the costs of medical care will drop significantly.

I think you're overestimating the number of physicians who want to practice while barely living above the poverty line. The appeal of living in Canada isn't that strong, particularly if their future earning potential is set so low from the outset.

No, I don't think so as long as the college of physicians limit the number of doctors here. Did you know that they paid UofT a load of money to admit less medical students? The private system has to have the power to hire qualified doctors that are not members of the college of physicians.

Are you willing to pay the extra costs of training these physicians? Or does your solution to this also involve privatizing the university system? Have you even thought this out?

 

[species5618w]

I think you're overestimating the number of physicians who want to practice while barely living above the poverty line. The appeal of living in Canada isn't that strong, particularly if their future earning potential is set so low from the outset.

I disagree. Canada has a lot to offer aside from financial incentives. Environment, land, freedom, etc...

Also, $30,000 is just an example. I don't think we even need to set a rate. Competitions between local doctors and foreign doctors will lower the costs by itself. I think foreign doctors will not earn much initially because most Canadians don't trust them, but that will change over time whereas local doctors will face increasing pressure to lower their rates.

Are you willing to pay the extra costs of training these physicians? Or does your solution to this also involve privatizing the university system? Have you even thought this out?

These physicians are already well trained. They will need to pass our medical examines, which is very hard, but that's their own problem.

In fact, we are already doing this. I know a Canadian doctor who owns two clinics. He hires a bunch of foreign doctors for $12/hr. They do all the diagnostic and prescription works. He just walks around and sign the papers. Not surprisingly, he does not bill the health care system $12/hr.

 

[Glen]

Perhaps businesses who generate wealth as a result of occupying space in our city shouldn't expect to be increasingly subsidized by those of us who pay residential property tax and don't generate wealth from our properties.

Are you serious?

Businesses pay over 4 times as much taxes to pay for services that are largely geared towards residents. A KPMG study showed that business receive only about 30% the amount of services per assessment dollar compared to residential. In Toronto it is the non residential sector and the province (via grants) that subsidizes residents. Never mind that businesses pay more than 7 times the amount of education tax.

 

[Urban Shocker]

I have made exactly zero dollars worth of profit off of the residential property that I live, in and have been paying property tax on, since I bought it in 1990. It makes perfect sense that a business occupying a property for the same length of time, and making profits as a result of generating wealth there, should pay far, far more tax than I do.

 

[species5618w]

I have made exactly zero dollars worth of profit off of the residential property that I live, in and have been paying property tax on, since I bought it in 1990. It makes perfect sense that a business occupying a property for the same length of time, and making profits as a result of generating wealth there, should pay far, far more tax than I do.

Don't they already pay income taxes on these profits? They are also generating employments for the city. Shouldn't the city pay them instead out of gratitude?

 

[lordmandeep]

I have made exactly zero dollars worth of profit off of the residential property that I live, in and have been paying property tax on, since I bought it in 1990. It makes perfect sense that a business occupying a property for the same length of time, and making profits as a result of generating wealth there, should pay far, far more tax than I do

thats in a ideal world, put the reality is, if the city does not lower business taxes , it will continue to lag in job growth.

 

[afransen]

I have made exactly zero dollars worth of profit off of the residential property that I live, in and have been paying property tax on, since I bought it in 1990. It makes perfect sense that a business occupying a property for the same length of time, and making profits as a result of generating wealth there, should pay far, far more tax than I do.

Property tax isn't designed to confiscate wealth. It's designed to pay for the cost of providing services. If you don't want to pay any property tax, move somewhere where no services are provided to you. No free lunch...

You obviously don't realise that shitting on business (investment) has a nasty habit of making that business go elsewhere. That investment is here so long as it earns a certain rate of return. Once the conditions change such that rate of return is not realised, it moves somewhere else (that might be Mississauga or Mumbai). Sure, it is captive in the short run, but punitively taxing business catches up with you eventually, as Toronto has discovered and is now rectifying.

Face it, Toronto residential tax rates are the lowest in the GTA. Toronto property owners have been getting a free ride. I have no sympathy that you may live in an $800,000 home and thereby pay a lot of property tax. I will shed no tears for someone in that position, as it is strictly by choice.

 

[theman23]

I disagree. Canada has a lot to offer aside from financial incentives. Environment, land, freedom, etc...

Sure, it does. But most don't care. Potential financial gain is the main driver of our immigration system.

Also, $30,000 is just an example. I don't think we even need to set a rate. Competitions between local doctors and foreign doctors will lower the costs by itself. I think foreign doctors will not earn much initially because most Canadians don't trust them, but that will change over time whereas local doctors will face increasing pressure to lower their rates.

Competition between locals and foreigners hasn't driven down salaries in the USA, so why would it happen here? The fact is, even when you bring in foreign MDs into a private system, the demand will still be greater than the supply. Physicians get paid their hefty salaries because their skills and talents demand it. I don't know where you got this fantasy of yours from, but the fact is that the provincial governments are the only thing keeping Canadian physician salaries as low as they are.

These physicians are already well trained. They will need to pass our medical examines, which is very hard, but that's their own problem.

It still won't be enough to get salaries down to your target.

In fact, we are already doing this. I know a Canadian doctor who owns two clinics. He hires a bunch of foreign doctors for $12/hr. They do all the diagnostic and prescription works. He just walks around and sign the papers. Not surprisingly, he does not bill the health care system $12/hr.

In this case, they have no other alternative. Do you think they'll still be accepting $12/hr once they are legally able to practice medicine in Canada?

 

[species5618w]

Sure, it does. But most don't care. Potential financial gain is the main driver of our immigration system.


Competition between locals and foreigners hasn't driven down salaries in the USA, so why would it happen here? The fact is, even when you bring in foreign MDs into a private system, the demand will still be greater than the supply. Physicians get paid their hefty salaries because their skills and talents demand it. I don't know where you got this fantasy of yours from, but the fact is that the provincial governments are the only thing keeping Canadian physician salaries as low as they are.


It still won't be enough to get salaries down to your target.


In this case, they have no other alternative. Do you think they'll still be accepting $12/hr once they are legally able to practice medicine in Canada?

I fail to see your logic. You are saying that no matter how many more doctors we import, the imbalance between the demand and supply would not easy? And their salaries would not go down?

 

[theman23]

I fail to see your logic. You are saying that no matter how many more doctors we import, the imbalance between the demand and supply would not easy? And their salaries would not go down?

Basically, yes. You talk as if there is some limitless supply of physicians wanting to pack their bags and move to Canada so they can make $30k a year.

 

[ganjavih]

Sorry, species5618w... you're way off. No one is going to practice medicine for $30,000. Just the annual fees including malpractice insurance can be up to $30,000. The foreign doctors hired for $12/hour you speak of are not licensed physicians and are not practising medicine.

And what exactly do you have against the College of Physicians? Don't you want physicians to be licensed by a body that regulates the practice of medicine?

 

[Hydrogen]

Property tax isn't designed to confiscate wealth. It's designed to pay for the cost of providing services. If you don't want to pay any property tax, move somewhere where no services are provided to you. No free lunch...

The point is that some people are paying far more for those services solely on the basis of a property evaluation that they have little control over.