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High-Speed Rail Proposals

I have the report on high speed rail with me right here, and one of its most interesting findings is that there is virtually no cost difference between running the high-speed track along an existing right-of-way and running it on a greenfield site.

The City of Barrie bought the tracks as far as Barrie, so the only area really affected by the abandonment is Orillia.
 
^Not really, that could have been an exclusive passenger rail corridor up north. Since freight traffic is what causes most VIA delays, reliability could have been increased.
 
And the Newmarket sub was more direct than the Beaverton sub, and actually served populated places like Newmarket, Barrie and Orillia, while VIA makes no stops on its current route. VIA to Barrie and Orillia could have been useful as regular passenger service, with bus connections to Collingwood, Muskoka, etc from those stations.
 
You both have excellent points, but I'm just saying that for local service to Toronto, there isn't that much on the abandoned segment of the line north of Barrie. Moreover, there aren't likely to be very many people at all going north from Barrie or Newmarket, since the VIA service is only the three-day-a-week Canadian to Western Canada, and they don't seem to be showing any signs of improving service. Any new train service to that area is going to come from GO, and that wouldn't ever go beyond Barrie anyway. Don't you mean Bala Sub, though, spmarshall?
 
^Things could always change. Who knows how the government's attutude to rail could change in 10 years? That's what I mean by shortsighted.
 
^In many cases though, old rail corridors may be of little use. The biggest factor in this case would be alignments that would not adequately serve the purpose of a modern passenger line.

In all but a few small instances that I have seen, most abandoned rail corridors remain virtually untouched even 50 years after the fact. At most some may become recreational trails and a few homes with driveways onto the ROW may be constructed, but that is about all. I used to go exploring old rail lines in the Kingston/Smiths Falls/Ottawa area when I was growing up there and most have remained untouched after all this time to the point where a company would find little difficulty in aquiring the corridors for new rail service.

It would be ideal if the various levels of governments enacted laws that ensured rail corridors remained as such to protect them from sales to companies or parties who may use it for other purposes. But lose of vital or strategic corridors doesn't seem to be much of a problem so even in the absence of such a law there does not seem to be much cause for concern.
 
I agree the corridors should be protected. But I don't understand why in some cases they actually TEAR UP the track. That's not necessary. They should keep all the tracks available for possible future use. It'd be very difficult to build new railroads at this point, especially in heavily populated S. Ontario.
 
But I don't understand why in some cases they actually TEAR UP the track. That's not necessary.

I can think of a couple good reasons for tearing up the track. The first would be if a rail company needs the track for another line. Its much cheaper to reuse old track than to have to purchase it. Also if you have ever walked down an older, even quietly used sub in some cases the condition of the line is sketchy at best. Track does need to replaced regardless of whether its in use or not and if a line deteriorates to a certain point where track would have to replaced if trains where to run on it again, one might as well rip it up and either reuse, sell, or save the steel rails. There also may be insurance costs associated with corridors that have track in place even if the track is unused.
 
I don't know any cases where they re-use the track on a different line. They tear up the track to sell the rails as scrap steel.
 
I have heard it done, where track is ripped up and then used elsewhere. Some of the track in Eastern Ontario (such as on the Picton sub, ripped up in 1998, the best, heaviest rail sent to BC for re-tracking).

And yes, I meant Bala, not Beaverton, though a route through Orillia would end up using Bala anyway from Washago to go to Sudbury. I think the Northlander would be better on the Newmarket Sub, as well as the Canadian (though a daily train to Sudbury would be welcomed by me for sure).
 
track panels are definitely cascaded to lightly used lines in Ireland.
 
High-Speed Rail Proposals (was Post: Alberta)

Link to article

Albertans hear that train comin'
The province has long dreamed of a high-speed line

Kevin Libin
National Post

Wednesday, April 25, 2007

CALGARY - Albertans have dreamed of a bullet train whisking them between Calgary and Edmonton almost since there have been bullet trains.

And for nearly as long, skeptics dismissed the idea as economically unrealistic. But after the province revealed recently that it is buying up land in both major cities that may one day serve as high-speed rail terminals, suddenly, Albertans are starting to think they hear that train a comin', fast.

Love the idea or hate it -- and there are plenty on either side -- there is, according to one provincial Tory insider, "really good traction" for the idea in the power corridors of Edmonton.

Finance Minister Lyle Oberg enthusiastically backed the idea while campaigning for the party leadership last fall.

And Premier Ed Stelmach, while still a transport minister, met a few years back with executives of at least one major rail firm interested in bidding on the project.

Right now, the province is studying the patterns of passengers up and down the northsouth corridor -- snapping photos of cars at each end of the Queen Elizabeth 2 highway and surveying drivers, bus and airline passengers about how much they would pay to cut down on their travel time.

Rather than a three-hour drive or a plane trip that could take nearly as long, after accounting for airport cab rides, a high-speed passenger train could zip from downtown Calgary to downtown Edmonton, with a stop midway in booming Red Deer, in anywhere from 60 to 90 minutes (depending on whether it is a fast diesel, an electric TGV or one of those ridiculously cool magnetic-levitation trains).

And spending an hour with a glass of Chablis and a copy of the National Post on your lap, instead of jostling with transport truckers for space on an underscenic and overcrowded stretch of highway, has got to be worth a lot.

But the bigger question may be how much taxpayers are willing to shell out for a flashy new people-mover.

"You can't make a good economic case for it right now," says Frank Atkins, a University of Calgary economist who has studied transport issues in the province.

To justify it, he says, "you've got to have some vision and be willing to say 'if you build it they will come.' "

Most high-speed trains move between contiguous, extremely dense urban networks. Japan's famous high-speed rail system, for instance, which connects Kobe, Osaka and Tokyo, serves a population of 60 million -- and still requires subsidization.

The number of people in and around Calgary, Red Deer and Edmonton is about 2.5 million.

Then there's the price tag: anywhere from $6-billion to $12-billion, says Jerry Belikka, a spokesman for the provincial infrastructure and transportation department.

That doesn't include annual operation subsidies.

Alberta is aware enough of its worrisome addiction to outof- control spending that on the same day Mr. Oberg delivered his record $33-billion budget last week, a 17% increase over 2006, he warned that "we just can't keep raising our spending at these levels," without facing a deficit.

So, now might not be the best time to shop around for pricey new projects. Already, labour and material shortages are doubling the price of major capital plans in the province.

According to a 2004 report from Aalborg University in Denmark, nine out of 10 major rail projects worldwide run over budget, and on average, end up with less than half the passengers planners promised.

And the airlines and bus companies now serving provincial travellers will surely point out that a provincially backed rail competitor would make a liar out a pro-privatization PC party that once promised to get the government out of "the business of being in business."

Not surprisingly, the transport ministry is careful to downplay suggestions the government is readying to roll with rapid rail.

"We're always looking 20 years ahead," Mr. Bellika explains about the land purchases. The province, he says, is hedging, locking up land now just in case it needs it sometime in the future.

Still, it must do something about the growing congestion up and down the QE2, where 50,000 cars and trucks rumble daily. Simply expanding the highway from four to six lanes could cost more than $1-billion.

The province has promised in the past that any high-speed rail project would be built with a financial hand from the private sector.

And with politicians eager to shore up their environmentalist credentials, a promise to take SUV drivers off the road and put them into rail cars might offer more than just good PR.

It could convince Ottawa, under pressure from pro-Kyoto groups to go after the province with the most greenhouse-gas emissions, to chip in, too -- leaving not just Albertans, but taxpayers in all 10 provinces on the hook.

In the end, that might be just the fuel to get a high-speed train moving. After years of picking up the tab for goodies in other provinces, the irresistible appeal to Albertans of sailing in style along a ribbon of steel subsidized by Easterners, might be what it takes to finally make this project politically palatable.

- - -

HIGH-SPEED PROJECTS

PARIS-STRASBOURG

Latest extension to France's high-speed network is due to open in June, with trains able to travel up to 320 km/h.

HANOI-HO CHI MINH CITY

Vietnam announced plans in February for a $37-billion, 1,630-km network with trains travelling up to 320 km/h.

SAN FRANCISCO-SAN DIEGO

California is studying French rail for proposal that would cover 1,100 km to San Francisco to L.A. and San Diego.

SHANGHAI-BEIJING

This summer China plans to have 36 trains connecting Shanghai to Beijing, Chongqing and other cities, travelling at 200-250 km/h.
 
The distance from about Edmonton to Calgary is about 280km, while the distance from Hamilton to Montreal (via TO and Ottawa) is about 560km. At the same price (which it probably won't be because of land costs) that would be "anywhere from $12 billion to $24 billion" while serving a population of ~9-10 million. That makes 4x the population served for 2-3x the cost, which is clearly the better "value". (then again, Alberta is oil-rich so it's not an equal comparison)
 
It's also not an equal comparison because of terrain. While Southern Ontario is an easier location than most of Europe, it's much more challenging (urban, hilly) than Alberta.
 
And the markets they are serving are totally different. An Alberta HSR line would be a whole new type of service for that region while an HSR line in the Quebec-Ontario corridor region would be building on top of existing transportation patterns. The corridor also has AMT and GO who could easily benefit from any upgrades to passenger rail service. So while the price tag may be somewhat more, for the reasons unimaginative2 stated mostly, the benefits that would be gained in the corridor would be far greater.

I have nothing against an Alberta HSR project, any upgrades to passenger rail anywhere in Canada is a good thing. Though I would add the reservation that this is going to lead some pretty spectacular discussions and arguments in the future over provincial and federal jurisdictions, funding, privatization, etc. It would be great if Ontario and Quebec politicians really started to take a stand on the issue in the very near future so that the two provinces are not left behind during a moment in time when the idea of HSR, and better passenger rail service all around, could really take hold with the public and politicians.

Edit:

Then there's the price tag: anywhere from $6-billion to $12-billion, says Jerry Belikka, a spokesman for the provincial infrastructure and transportation department.

This makes no sense too me. If the distance between the two cities is 280km then that means they are estimating the cost at $21.4 million - $42.8 million per kilometer. The cost per kilometer for the LGV Est line including the cost of stations (one for every 100km) and being built to operate at speeds up to 350 km/h is $16.15 million CDN. And this is through a terrain that while not overly difficult is still more challenging than from Calgary to Edmonton. At the cost of the LGV Est line that would put the Alberta HSR line at $4.5 billion for the infrastructure costs. So even if you were too spend $1.5 billion on rolling stock only then would get their low end estimate of $6 billion. I know the article says that labour and material costs are more in Alberta, but I would really surprised if there was that much of an increase (especially since Canada is not a country short of resources).

Edit 2:

I came across this article today.

http://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com/articleFiles/April_18_2007.pdf

It is an article from that the Calgary Herald published on April 18th, 2007 which says that the province has purchased land in downtown Calgary for a potential rail terminal. I thought it was somewhat strange that the National Post out of nowhere came out with an article on HSR in Alberta, and with a not surprisingly critical tone (and exaggerated numbers). Perhaps it was in reaction to the announcement that came one week earlier? It will be interesting to see if the National Post does the same thing the next time there is serious discussion, or an announcement, about anything related to HSR in Ontario and Quebec.
 

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