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High-Speed Rail Proposals

I have read through a lot of the federal government reports on high speed rail but still have yet to get my hands on a full copy of the Lynx Consortium proposal. I am anxious to see just what they had proposed.

One interesting aspect of HSR that I have come across is just how successful some of the lines in Europe have been. In France, each TGV so far has been able to pay back the cost of construction within a 10 year period as a result of revenues. Obviously Quebec-Ontario are not going to achieve those rates, but it would seem more than fair that say within a 20 year period the line be able to recover most of the construction costs.

One thing I also don't understand is why the provincial governments are not more active in pursuing this idea. I know that it is a lot of money, but, it would be foolish to expect that the federal government is going to pay for it all, especially when it is a program that will only affect only 2 provinces. And if the provinces became involved it could give the project a lot more mommentum.

Hopefully the next time the idea is proposed any affiliated groups learn from the past 2 attempts and put forward something with a lot more strength. As much as I would like to see HSR it does seem that in aspects such as financial stability of the line and financing of construction the details where not well resolved (perhaps I will think otherwise when I read the Lynx proposal but even if they did demonstrate this aspect well it would seem that the government then did a poor job in communicating this to MP's and the public). Also I think ensuring that local service continues at existing or near existing levels is going to be very important in gaining province wide support (and building stations in rural no mans land really does not count in my opinion).
 
"will only affect only 2 provinces."

Ontario + Quebec is 65% of Canada, while the Confederation bridge cost how much, connecting two provinces, which collectively amount to perhaps a few percent of Canada's population.

Interprovincial infrastructure is squarely in the Federal gov't's jurisdiction.
 
-New alignment north of the 401 to a station stop just north of Kingston

-New alignment to Ottawa with a stop at the existing station

-Existing VIA Rail-owned route to Montreal with station stop at Dorval

So was the plan to run all trains up from Kingston to Ottawa, and then to Montreal?
 
Interprovincial infrastructure is squarely in the Federal gov't's jurisdiction.
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Maybe so but the federal government has hardly been warm to Ontario in recent years. Maybe in a few years the political climate will change and a project like this will become more likely to have federal support. Even then, I don't see any reason why the provinces should not also have to participate financially in the project. I am not suggesting they foot most of the bill, but if they were to cover say, 30% of the total cost, that would seem more than reasonable since the net gain of a HSR project wouldn't just be greater interprovincial connectivity, but also benefit local transportation as well.

If the overall cost of the project was say $7 billion, that would put the provinces on the hook for roughly $2 billion, and split between the provinces again it would mean a contribution of say $800 million for Quebec and $1.2 billion for Ontario. This is far from an unreasonable amount (how much will the province spend on an extension to Vaughan?) and even covering 30% of the costs could give it a much better chance of going forward.
 
My suspicion is that the federal government is cool to high speed rail because they (correctly) see it as a direct competitor to Air Canada's Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal service, which probably brings in a lot of revenue for the airline. Once you make rail a cheaper and faster option than flying, Air Canada is going to take it hard on the chin. I certainly don't have a problem with that, but I get the feeling that the government still feels responsible for keeping AC afloat.
 
^I would tend to agree with you which is exactly why a little posturing by the Ontario and Quebec governments would really be a boast to to an HSR project.

I think one of the difficulties in such a project is that this will just be a bigger, more subsidized VIA Rail service. And I do think that this is a good opportunity to look at other operating models. If the federal government could be persuaded that funding high speed rail would be no different than funding highways (ie build an infrastructure that is then used by other governments and private companies so that they are not responsible for subsidizing service, only perhaps maintanence and traffic control) this might be much easier to put forward. Once the infrastructure is in place, then the provincial governments and perhaps a jointly owned company to operate the intercity portions, could operate the service.

But there is little doubt that this would impact airlines serving the same route immensely which is why it is going to take a political leader who looks ignores airline lobbys and a strong public support to make it happen.
 
Man a train that could do Toronto to Montreal direct in 2.5 hours would be AWESOME! You could go for the day and be back in time for tea!
 
Man a train that could do Toronto to Montreal direct in 2.5 hours would be AWESOME!
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I pray that I will live to see that day. That would rock.
 
The difference between France and Canada is that SNCF probably own all of the track TGV runs on.

I don't think any fed govt other than an NDP/Green one would look for longer than 10 seconds at expropriating CN/CP's lines.
 
Well, until 11 years ago, the government did own the majority of railways in Canada.

Part of the problem too is that all alternate frieght corridors are being abandoned to save money. The Caso (Canada Southern) corridor, Niagara-Windsor is being ripped up, and all trains forced on the CN mainline that VIA uses. The line VIA used to use to northern Ontario through Barrie and Orillia was pulled up by CN because it could squeeze its trains onto the line through Beaverton, but any VIA trains are held in sidings for CN's freights.

There are tracks and allignments that are built to very high standards, such as Brockville-Cornwall, which is straight as an arrow. It wouldn't take much to upgrade Belleville-Oshawa either, which except in Port Hope and Cobourg itself, avoids the most built up areas, the same with Hamilton-Brantford, Paris-Woodstock, Ingersoll-London, Komoka-Chatham, Chatham-Windsor via CP. Allowing diesel trains to run 200 kmh (like British Diesel HST) wouldn't take too much.

3.5 hours to Montreal is within fairly easy reach (slashing 40 minutes off the fastest scheduled train), after that, all new allignments in select areas and eventual electrification will be needed.
 
Expropriation would probably not be a big deal. Most of CN or CP's corridors are large enough that a few additonal tracks would probably still leave them room for expansion themselves should they desire so in the future. Freight companies biggest concerns will probably be that they don't get saddled with extra expenses as a result of dedicated HSR track (Im thinking of issues such as rebuilding over/under passes, flyovers, etc).

And given that a dedicated line will be mean new construction regardless of where its located there are also the options of Hydro corridors or the 401 corridor.

The only places where things might get tricky is through some cities or towns where the corridors might not be able to accomodate anymore expansion. In this case it may mean a freight (or passenger) bypass around the city instead which could mean a little more leg work in aquiring land than just running in a convenient corridor, but still possible. And of course cities such as Toronto and Montreal would a totally different consideration unto themselves.

The techincal aspect of the project would not be very hard to deal with. There are enough countries that have tried it and enough companies involved in various aspects of HSR that a plan could easily be developed for Quebec-Windsor project.

It is still the politics of getting the funding to start the project that is the big barrier. I could see a Liberal minority with NDP support being the best chance to push ahead with a project like this or a similair coalition and mix of socialist and industrialist voices. And it will require the cooperation of Federal, Provincial and Municipal governments, which, given how childish the relationships between these groups can get, might be an even more difficult task that getting the funding.
 
I was looking at a map of Ontario-Quebec recently, and wondered if a more appropriate high speed alignment might not be north, on or parallel to the Havelock, which runs north through Peterborough and Smith Falls to the Quebec border. A quick pass up to Ottawa before hitting the Quebec border and into Montreal, and you have the TOM line (Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal).

I wonder if that wouldn't face too much political issues, given that it would mean providing inferior passenger rail services to the lakefront cities.
 
I can't see any reason to run it so far north. There are plenty of corridors along the lakeshore and St Lawrence that a new HSR alignment could be constructed. If it goes that far north the only purpose the line would serve is connecting Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Constructing a new passenger only corridor roughly along the current corridor would also help provide improved regional service which will be important to gain as much political support as possible.
 
I was looking at a map of Ontario-Quebec recently, and wondered if a more appropriate high speed alignment might not be north, on or parallel to the Havelock, which runs north through Peterborough and Smith Falls to the Quebec border. A quick pass up to Ottawa before hitting the Quebec border and into Montreal, and you have the TOM line (Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal).

I wonder if that wouldn't face too much political issues, given that it would mean providing inferior passenger rail services to the lakefront cities.
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That would be the most direct route from Toronto to Ottawa but it would require new track for much of the route. The line serves mines east of Havelock but it's been ripped up past there.

I can't believe the feds didn't buy up abandoned lines like the one VIA used through Barrie. They can be incredibly shortsighted.
 
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