High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[dunkalunk]

Ottawa Station is not in a location favourable to commuter rail, being too far from downtown and other employment areas. Commuter buses make much more sense (and there are several to and from Ottawa, using the Transitway, from Clarence-Rockland for example).

Unless you happen to work in government, Ottawa's employment are very decentralized, as is most everything else in the city thanks to the NCCs 70-era master-planning which implemented the greenbelt and the underused "scenic driveways". Thankfully, Ottawa's Union Station was saved from demolition and is for the most part unused.

Would bringing rail back to the downtown rail station by way of Colonel By Drive a worthwhile endeavour, or is Ottawa too far gone to support a downtown rail station? I personally can't think of a better place to put an urban HSR station in Ottawa. If not downtown, you may as well opt for a completely suburban location and stick it out by Greenboro to save the 15 minutes it would take to get to the existing VIA station sandwiched between the Queensway and Ottawa's industrial south.

 

[nfitz]

Ottawa Station is not in a location favourable to commuter rail, being too far from downtown and other employment areas.

Not a favourable location? It's at an LRT station, only 3 stops from the University of Ottawa and 5 stops from Parliament.

 

[MisterF]

Not a favourable location? It's at an LRT station, only 3 stops from the University of Ottawa and 5 stops from Parliament.

He has a point. Ottawa's train station may be only 5 stops from the heart of downtown Ottawa, but Union Station is zero stops from the heart of downtown Toronto. That's what makes it so convenient. The current Ottawa station being the commuter rail hub would be like GO terminating all its trains in the Port Lands.

 

[nfitz]

He has a point. Ottawa's train station may be only 5 stops from the heart of downtown Ottawa, but Union Station is zero stops from the heart of downtown Toronto. That's what makes it so convenient. The current Ottawa station being the commuter rail hub would be like GO terminating all its trains in the Port Lands.

The current Ottawa station would be like the BD subway line intersecting Yonge at Bloor rather than King. Oh wait ... it does!

When I used to work in downtown Ottawa, and would frequently grab a VIA train after work, I thought the current transitway right to the VIA station was very convenient. This will only become more so one the LRT tunnel is completed, and the buses aren't as slow through downtown.

 

[Aylmer]

Barrhaven, Kanata and even Orleans could all be well served by OTrain/SBahn-type rail with minimal new infrastructure, not to mention the north of Hull, Chelsea, Buckingham, Masson-Angers and beyond on the Gatineau side. Regional rail to surrounding towns like Smith Falls, Casselman and Arnprior would be more than possible as well: if there's enough demand for an expressway costing hundreds of millions of dollars, surely there must be enough demand to warrant rail service costing a fraction of that.

The lines could terminate at Bayview (if the tracks from Confederation to Bayview are twinned) or Chaudière (Hull), both closer to downtown. It could be implemented quickly, painlessly and would provide much-needed relief to the crowded and uncomfortable buses to the outer suburbs, the congested roads and our high infrastructure costs.

As for Union, I don't think that it's outside the realm of possibility. It would take a near-perfect alignment of the stars, but the project is by no means impossible: from Hurdman Park, make a bridge over the Rideau River where the Nicholas extension is planned to go, then make a shallow cut and cover tunnel under the Nicholas Expressway, to join up with an underground concourse (à la Britomart Station, Auckland's new/revived central station) beside the Canal, beneath Union.

Britomart Station in Auckland was abandoned for over eighty years before they rebuilt it underground, much like could happen with Union

If/When we start seriously discussing HSR as a national megaproject and someone in Ottawa champions the idea of a revived Union Station, I don't think that it would be too far-fetched a possibility. If by then there are already O-Train/Regional lines up and running, the project would be very welcome to suburban dwellers, providing them with a transfer-less ride downtown. Downtown businesses and travelers would benefit from a direct rapid connection to Montreal, Toronto, New York and beyond.

I'd estimate the cost at $1-1.5B (Britomart only cost about $200M), which though not insignificant, is definitely within the realm of affordable; we've spent much more on much less.

As I said, it would take the perfect conditions and a champion and I by no means expect it to happen, but I wouldn't discount the possibility. I mean, ten years ago, who would have believed Ottawa would be building a subway through the downtown core?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Commuter rail on substandard corridors is surprisingly ec

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Barrhaven, Kanata and even Orleans could all be well served by OTrain/SBahn-type rail with minimal new infrastructure, not to mention the north of Hull, Chelsea, Buckingham, Masson-Angers and beyond on the Gatineau side. Regional rail to surrounding towns like Smith Falls, Casselman and Arnprior would be more than possible as well: if there's enough demand for an expressway costing hundreds of millions of dollars, surely there must be enough demand to warrant rail service costing a fraction of that.

The lines could terminate at Bayview (if the tracks from Confederation to Bayview are twinned) or Chaudière (Hull), both closer to downtown. It could be implemented quickly, painlessly and would provide much-needed relief to the crowded and uncomfortable buses to the outer suburbs, the congested roads and our high infrastructure costs.

As for Union, I don't think that it's outside the realm of possibility. It would take a near-perfect alignment of the stars, but the project is by no means impossible: from Hurdman Park, make a bridge over the Rideau River where the Nicholas extension is planned to go, then make a shallow cut and cover tunnel under the Nicholas Expressway, to join up with an underground concourse (à la Britomart Station, Auckland's new/revived central station) beside the Canal, beneath Union.

Britomart Station in Auckland was abandoned for over eighty years before they rebuilt it underground, much like could happen with Union

If/When we start seriously discussing HSR as a national megaproject and someone in Ottawa champions the idea of a revived Union Station, I don't think that it would be too far-fetched a possibility. If by then there are already O-Train/Regional lines up and running, the project would be very welcome to suburban dwellers, providing them with a transfer-less ride downtown. Downtown businesses and travelers would benefit from a direct rapid connection to Montreal, Toronto, New York and beyond.

I'd estimate the cost at $1-1.5B (Britomart only cost about $200M), which though not insignificant, is definitely within the realm of affordable; we've spent much more on much less.

As I said, it would take the perfect conditions and a champion and I by no means expect it to happen, but I wouldn't discount the possibility. I mean, ten years ago, who would have believed Ottawa would be building a subway through the downtown core?

Exactly, commuter rail could work in Otttawa but it would take a lot of cooperation. Plus it would be cool.

 

[ShonTron]

We discussed only a month ago why Ottawa does or doesn't make much sense for commuter rail (I still think it is a pipe dream and not really worth it). It was a thread that you started, Den.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/20549-Why-is-commuter-regional-rail-so-bad-in-Canada

"Because it would be cool" is not a reason why transit should be built.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

We discussed only a month ago why Ottawa does or doesn't make much sense for commuter rail (I still think it is a pipe dream and not really worth it). It was a thread that you started, Den.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/20549-Why-is-commuter-regional-rail-so-bad-in-Canada

"Because it would be cool" is not a reason why transit should be built.

Fair enough.

 

[TOareaFan]

Sorry to take this thread off topic but I don't have a lot to say on commuter rail in Ottawa.

Interesting tidbit in the CBC story on the Murray Express to London.....it would, indeed, be combined with the UPX to be one service.

 

[diminutive]

Sorry to take this thread off topic but I don't have a lot to say on commuter rail in Ottawa.

Interesting tidbit in the CBC story on the Murray Express to London.....it would, indeed, be combined with the UPX to be one service.

I like the tidbit about not being able to release background papers until after the election due to 'commercial confidentiality.'

How convenient!

 

[TOareaFan]

I like the tidbit about not being able to release background papers until after the election due to 'commercial confidentiality.'

How convenient!

It certainly allows him to state it has been studied and fully costed without the risk of anyone challenging him on it

 

[gweed123]

Re: Commuter rail in Ottawa vis-a-vis HSR:

I would think that any true commuter rail push in Ottawa would need to be done in conjunction with a new HSR station in downtown (possibly reusing Union).

HSR is likely going to piss a lot of people outside of Ottawa off, because areas like Smiths Falls, Brockville, Casselman, etc, will likely no longer be getting VIA service.

If a large-scale new downtown station isn't in the cards, I can still see GO moving some of their (hopefully) soon-to-be surplus rolling stock to Ottawa to provide service to the in-between areas that the HSR has bypassed. This would perhaps include a few new suburban Ottawa stations like the one built at Fallowfield by Via in the early 2000s. It would probably only be 4 or 5 round trips a day, but just to make up for the loss of Via service. This wouldn't truly be commuter rail service, however.

 

[dunkalunk]

HSR is likely going to piss a lot of people outside of Ottawa off, because areas like Smiths Falls, Brockville, Casselman, etc, will likely no longer be getting VIA service.

I'm curious where this assumption is coming from. Just because HSR exists, doesn't necessarily mean intercity VIA service would be abandoned. In particular, I'd think Brockville would continue to have service on the same corridor serving Cornwall.

 

[gweed123]

I'm curious where this assumption is coming from. Just because HSR exists, doesn't necessarily mean intercity VIA service would be abandoned. In particular, I'd think Brockville would continue to have service on the same corridor serving Cornwall.

Presumably the Toronto-Montreal (with a spur to Ottawa) HSR service would run about midway between the St. Lawrence and Ottawa, in order to reduce the amount of total trackage needed. That, as well as the general stop spacing required for HSR, would make stops like Brockville, Cornwall, Smiths Falls, and Casselman not feasible.

I wouldn't think that Via would continue to operate non-HSR trains on the current Via routes once the HSR is operational. Places east of Toronto until Kingston could be served by a quasi-GO-like entity (see my latest map in the Fantasy Thread for the SOGO - Southern Ontario GO - routes), while Cornwall could potentially be served by an extension of a Montreal commuter line. For Smiths Falls and Casselman, this is where the Ottawa GO service I was describing earlier would come in.

Basically, any place currently getting Via service that would see it dropped because of the new HSR routing shouldn't expect regular Via service to be maintained. In essence, Via would be 'downloading' the responsibility to serve those areas to GO or AMT.