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High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

TOareaFan said:
Are we talking about the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal route in here so much because there is no information on the London-KW-Pearson-Toronto thing or because there is no thread for the TO-OTT-Mtl HFR?

Just wondering.
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We have a great discussion going on in the VIA forum about Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City service enhancements proposed by VIA, including a new route through Peterborough, right now if people want to discuss that there too :) http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/via-rail.21060/page-104
 
Connecting London is at least as important as connecting QC. Despite the cutbacks of years gone by, London remains the 4th busiest VIA rail station in the county after Tor/Mon/Ott. Also the 401 is FAR more congested than the routes between QC & Mon so the demand is already higher and this will continue. London also has the advantage of connecting with the US. QC is definitely needed but not at the expense of London/SWO whether that be in time or money.

These lines must be true high-speed or it's not really worth it. No one from London or KWC/Ham is going to bother switching to VIA from driving if they only save 10 minutes per 100km. Nobody is going to be enticed back to rail because they manage to get back to the speeds from Tor/Lon that VIA offered 40 years ago. People won't shift their driving habit, nor be too damn please to spend their hard earned tax dollars if the goal is to bring back service they had 40 years ago. That's like asking for a needed new hospital, paying special taxes to get it, and then ending up with a little medical clinic. The goal should be London to Toronto in an hour, Tor/Mon within 2.5.

VIA will also find it next to impossible to get a PPP and use the Infrastructure Bank to simply rebuild some portion of the lines and increase frequency. That is just a mild increase in current service which private investors will not be interested in. That's like getting the TTC trying to get funds from a private partner to improve a bus route. It's not going to happen. No one is going to offer private money for Que/Ont improved service when there are loads of other options in the US and elsewhere that are fighting for those same private funds.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Connecting London is at least as important as connecting QC. Despite the cutbacks of years gone by, London remains the 4th busiest VIA rail station in the county after Tor/Mon/Ott. Also the 401 is FAR more congested than the routes between QC & Mon so the demand is already higher and this will continue. London also has the advantage of connecting with the US. QC is definitely needed but not at the expense of London/SWO whether that be in time or money.

These lines must be true high-speed or it's not really worth it. No one from London or KWC/Ham is going to bother switching to VIA from driving if they only save 10 minutes per 100km. Nobody is going to be enticed back to rail because they manage to get back to the speeds from Tor/Lon that VIA offered 40 years ago. People won't shift their driving habit, nor be too damn please to spend their hard earned tax dollars if the goal is to bring back service they had 40 years ago. That's like asking for a needed new hospital, paying special taxes to get it, and then ending up with a little medical clinic. The goal should be London to Toronto in an hour, Tor/Mon within 2.5.

VIA will also find it next to impossible to get a PPP and use the Infrastructure Bank to simply rebuild some portion of the lines and increase frequency. That is just a mild increase in current service which private investors will not be interested in. That's like getting the TTC trying to get funds from a private partner to improve a bus route. It's not going to happen. No one is going to offer private money for Que/Ont improved service when there are loads of other options in the US and elsewhere that are fighting for those same private funds.
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Few things about London, VIA, and passenger service in the area -
  • There are lots of people who don't drive. Specifically, the student population. Western has 35,000 students, and Fanshawe has about 40,000 (split full-time/half-time). Yes some students carpool or have cars, some take greyhound, but lots seem to take the train when going home. On holidays like Thanksgiving or Easter when people are mostly leaving or returning at the same time, some VIA trains can balloon to up to 12 cars long. Also bad weather (snow) that is common in London makes a good case for enhanced VIA service
  • VIA also wants to see London be a Southern Ontario hub. VIA has been testing their old RDCs for a more frequent Sarnia-London service. More VIA trains from London means better connections to Toronto from Ontario's "far-south"
  • Also, VIA is most likely to be one of the first organizations to benefit from the proposed Infrastructure Bank. Transport Minister Marc Garneau has mentioned the VIA dedicated tracks proposal (Toronto, Peterborough, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City) numerous times as an example of a project that could be funded by the Infrastructure Bank, most recently as last week. http://dailycommercialnews.com/Infr...nadas-transportation-future-Garneau-1019903W/
 
VIA dedicated tracks is a start but all this will do is bring back service levels of the 1970s..............sorry but I don't think anyone is going to do cartwheels for that. There was less population then but conversely they didn't have the option of Billy Bishop.
QC should not even be considered unless a line to London would open simultaneously with Windsor in sight.
 
I was checking times for a trip to Ottawa yesterday, and my reaction to the latest schedule was actually wow - it has never been this good. We once had similar frequency with good travel times (back around 1983) as far as London.

VIA is looking for $5B for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, which includes electrification and new equipment. I wonder if the same money spread London- Quebec, sans electrification, would produce a better net benefit. The government's studies say not, but we don't have to agree with them :). Bookending the Central leg with better Montreal-Quebec service and Toronto-London service is compelling to me.


- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I was checking times for a trip to Ottawa yesterday, and my reaction to the latest schedule was actually wow - it has never been this good. We once had similar frequency with good travel times (back around 1983) as far as London.

VIA is looking for $5B for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, which includes electrification and new equipment. I wonder if the same money spread London- Quebec, sans electrification, would produce a better net benefit. The government's studies say not, but we don't have to agree with them :). Bookending the Central leg with better Montreal-Quebec service and Toronto-London service is compelling to me.


- Paul
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Isn't that kind of what the Province is already doing with their HSR proposal? Part of me expects the Provincial HSR proposal to be watered down to building a partially new corridor with upgraded tracks to handle higher speeds, and allow both GO and VIA to operate on them. The Feds pay for T-O-M upgrades, and the Province pays for T-K-L-W. Likewise, Quebec can pay for M-QC.
 
It's not HSR. I'll eat my hat if it is. It' be higher speed conventional rail. It'll basically be a continuation of the hourly TOM HFR service. Think of London as the western terminus.

This is Canada. This is Ontario. Overpromise. Under-deliver. It's our way. And here's the thing. Voters won't care. Something better than nothing after all. And all this is assuming they get shovels in the ground soon. Wynne's not going to survive the next election. And she's probably going to politicize this project (by using it as a wedge) all but ensuring that if the Conservatives will, it'll get canned in favour of highway expansion.
 
kEiThZ said:
This is Canada. This is Ontario. Overpromise. Under-deliver. It's our way. And here's the thing. Voters won't care. Something better than nothing after all. And all this is assuming they get shovels in the ground soon.
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Textbook example: ScamTrack.
 
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crs1026 said:
I was checking times for a trip to Ottawa yesterday, and my reaction to the latest schedule was actually wow - it has never been this good.
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I'm glad you noticed! Weekly train mileage in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle is now 27% higher than at VIA's creation and 73% higher than after the 1990 cuts. It even almost tripled between Toronto and Ottawa (there were only three round-trips daily back in 1977 and 1990, compared to now 9 on weekdays):
TOM-train km.jpg

Source: Official timetables published by VIA Rail
 

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kEiThZ said:
This would utterly change the nature of corridor travel. People think 2.5 hrs is slow compared to HSR. But spec the fare right and it becomes much more attractive than driving.
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And at a third of the price of HSR. HSR competes directly with flying, for better or worse, but it means it prices itself out of the normal reach of most users. You'd only save an hour with full HSR, is it really worth it? For some, yes, for most, no. And HFR can be delivered using underutilized freight corridors and abandoned RoWs, some trains doing local service as well. It serves far more people at a fraction of the cost and can be built in far less time than true HSR, which will require new legislation and EAs.

I do have to add that the reason VIA's recent good schedule times might be down to greatly reduced freight traffic. It remains an excellent demonstration of what VIA *can* do, given the unobstructed pathways.
(Edit to Add: Just checking latest figures, Cdn freight volume is rebounding, US isn't as much, that may be transitory, we'll see, but we'll also see how it affects VIA's on-time performance)

Electrified HFR will kick that up another level. I'm very hopeful something is in the works, for no other reason than 'the planets being aligned'. There's $Trillions of investment money looking for a home, and HFR makes a lot of sense.

Now if that can happen along with the Missing Link, London might be doable in short time after the Tor/Ott/Mont spine.
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
The potential would be even greater when the Confederation Line opens.

AoD
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If Via could somehow work something out with OC Transpo that your Via ticket is good for a free ride on the Confederation Line from Bayview to Tremblay, that would be awesome. Not holding my breath though. Ottawa's station is the only one not within the CBD, so it's the only one that would need such an accommodation.
 
gweed123 said:
If Via could somehow work something out with OC Transpo that your Via ticket is good for a free ride on the Confederation Line from Bayview to Tremblay, that would be awesome. Not holding my breath though. Ottawa's station is the only one not within the CBD, so it's the only one that would need such an accommodation.
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Awesome but unnecessary IMO - convenience and not price (at that of a regular fare) is going to be the deciding factor for using transit to access the Ottawa Station.

Personally I think it would be nice to have some kind of weather-proof connection to Tremblay Station - the current proposal suggests a marginally covered route that is otherwise open to the elements.

AoD
 
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