High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[robmausser]

What about the second phase of the Barrie Line double tracking? There were immediate plans to double track more of it.

 

[kEiThZ]

How many people are going to take a train from London to K-W as a final destination?

Setting aside the regional travel discussion which I addressed earlier, I think if such a service were provided, you'd see healthy commuting traffic between KW and London develop over time. The cities would be ~ 1 hr apart by regular rail (less by HSR). That's a reasonable time to create an expanded business and labour market for both cities.

The bulk of the traffic would be regional. But I would imagine in a few years, extra trains would be needed for the peaks.

 

[robmausser]

I'm not praising the Liberals, as they weaseled on many promises, but they did bring several track expansion projects to the procurement stage that seem to have died there since the election. Track expansion (including signals in that) is the only part of the GO budget that represents growth.

The only track expansion that has survived the election is
Kennedy - Unionville (two contracts let by the Liberals and well under way by the election)
Strachan - Malton (various bits and pieces, and the 401-409 tunnel).

The Davenport Diamond appears to have some slight forward movement. The Guelph Sub is getting some TLC this year.

That's rather limited growth. We really don't know exactly what the Liberals could have actually afforded - their promise list was ridiculously long, but perhaps they would have awarded more of the outstanding RFP's, and sooner, had they returned to office.

So, I don't see Ford "moving forward" with GO expansion..... he's just coasting. One does not detect any sense of urgency.

- Paul

Honestly if we get AD2W and weekends (basically hourly 2 way service all day, 7 days a week) with the existing rolling stock on Barrie to Aurora, Kitchener to Mount Pleasant, and Stouffville to Mount Joy in the next 4 years im a happy camper.

 

[hw621]

Honestly if we get AD2W and weekends (basically hourly 2 way service all day, 7 days a week) with the existing rolling stock on Barrie to Aurora, Kitchener to Mount Pleasant, and Stouffville to Mount Joy in the next 4 years im a happy camper.

Honestly with the heavy investment on tracks, stations and grade separation, Stouffville should do better than that.

 

[Streety McCarface]

It doesn't matter how many people travel to the GTA. It's how many people travel to the commercial areas around stations (ideally walking distance away). I know many a people who live in Cambridge and commute to Mississauga Rd area. The question is how many people would this make it quicker for to get to work. (not that many)

I wouldn't be so skeptical, especially when the Finch West LRT Pearson extension, GO transit Pearson re-allignment, addition of stations, midtown corridor enhancements, through running services occur, Eglinton West LRT, etc are all built. In these scenarios, you're adding huge incentives to get pretty much anywhere in Toronto from Kitchener in under 2 hours if they can significantly improve the GO travel times from Kitchener to Toronto (which they most certainly can, it's not particularly difficult getting a train to run at an average of 75 km/h, especially with electrification, speed increases, and express services).

 

[robmausser]

Honestly with the heavy investment on tracks, stations and grade separation, Stouffville should do better than that.

Im not convinced this government will build the extra stations.

 

[kEiThZ]

Im not convinced this government will build the extra stations.

Extra stations are sort of an easy win. Not as expensive as a new line. Relatively easy to do. And can be targeted to be politically beneficial (read, "Let's map out which ridings these stations fall in.").

 

[crs1026]

Honestly with the heavy investment on tracks, stations and grade separation, Stouffville should do better than that.

Until they disposition the Kennedy-Scarborough Jct portion, it will be limited to whatever headways can be managed with that section of single track. GO can't have northbound trains held on the Kingston Sub at Scarborough Jct, so there will have to be enough slack in the schedule that southbound trains clear at Scarboro Jct well before the next northbound shows up. Even 20 minute headways would be pushing that, ten minutes of occupancy going up, then ten minutes down. Reallistically, 30-min 2WAD is about as good as it can get without fixing Scarboro Jct.

A good example of how you can spend a lot of money in one place, but unless you get on with the prerequisites in a logical sequence, something else will stand in the way of the end design.

- Paul

 

[hw621]

Im not convinced this government will build the extra stations.

I am not talking about new stations, just the expansion of Agincourt, Milliken and Union ville, which is now under construction.

 

[hw621]

Until they disposition the Kennedy-Scarborough Jct portion, it will be limited to whatever headways can be managed with that section of single track. GO can't have northbound trains held on the Kingston Sub at Scarborough Jct, so there will have to be enough slack in the schedule that southbound trains clear at Scarboro Jct well before the next northbound shows up. Even 20 minute headways would be pushing that, ten minutes of occupancy going up, then ten minutes down. Reallistically, 30-min 2WAD is about as good as it can get without fixing Scarboro Jct.

A good example of how you can spend a lot of money in one place, but unless you get on with the prerequisites in a logical sequence, something else will stand in the way of the end design.

- Paul

If they can do 30 min AD2W, all week in the relatively near future, I will take it.

 

[JohnnyRenton]

But since our wonderful Confederation involves such intense jealousies than any federal government investing in a corridor with over a third of the country's population might lose an election, we have to settle for HFR. What's truly sad here is that we never even got that.

I know the "were it not for the jealousy in the ROC" argument for the lack of funding in passenger rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor gets thrown around a lot, but I don't buy that. I think it's just a convenient excuse for why bad plans don't actually get built. Yes, some people in the west still hold to the "let the eastern bastards freeze" mentality. Most couldn't give a flying fig though. Yes, partisan media, like the Sun, and borderline hate organizations like Rebel Media do a good job fueling hate and regional differences, or urban/rural divides. But clinging onto the feeling that petty regionalism is the whole reason there isn't better rail service in the Corridor is not helping the cause.

Maybe part of the problem is that people in the Corridor don't care enough about rail, and intercity rail proposals, for any government to put their weight behind it. If, when VIA HFR was first announced, you had thousands of people contacting their local MPs, writing letters to the editor, talking about it on Facebook and Twitter, and really elevating the public discussion about it, there might have been an incentive for the Feds to make the project happen sooner, rather than later. But a lot of people are just not interested in it (contrast that with the amount of interest from the general public when it comes to inner-city public transit, like the Relief Line in Toronto, or the Confederation Line in Ottawa).

Does that mean rail will never go anywhere? Does it mean the car is just going to reign supreme? Of course not. One thing working in favour of intercity rail is that cities are starting to reorganize themselves away from being car-centric, and developing denser neighborhoods and nodes, and seeing more public transit being built, which helps make rail a more viable option (it isn't just about population, the structure of the city matters immensely). But waiting for those changes alone will take a generation, on top of the generation of urban restructuring that has already happened.

If VIA HFR, which was arguably the best proposal VIA has put forward for expansion, ever, and at a relatively modest cost compared to other potential proposals, couldn't get the public excited, maybe its time to go back to the drawing board. In Ottawa, a city that was probably going to benefit as much as any other city on line, if not see the most benefit, people just weren't that into it. And if you look at the reaction to the cancelling of the SW Ontario HSR project (outside of this board), its pretty muted. And then you have the "rail advocates" who, as is always the case, won't get behind any project unless it looks like their own personal fantasy, and thus do nothing to help promote modernizing rail travel.

I am as disappointed as anyone that HFR is in a void, and that that SW Ontario HSR proposal didn't get beyond a political press release. But if none of the plans are sparking peoples imaginations, or getting people who don't travel by rail to think "Oh yeah, that would actually be really useful, and convenient, and I could see myself taking the train if that was built", then of course the plans are not going to get very far if they don't have a sizeable amount of public support. People simultaneously like trains, and don't care about them. A useful rail network would be very popular. But if proposals don't seem useful to people, they are not going to get behind them just because it might end up being a fast, shiny train. I'm tired of groups and people pointing fingers at everybody but themselves when it comes to why intercity rail proposals fail. An honest look inward at why they have gone nowhere would do a world of good.

 

[lenaitch]

Maybe part of the problem is that people in the Corridor don't care enough about rail, and intercity rail proposals, for any government to put their weight behind it. If, when VIA HFR was first announced, you had thousands of people contacting their local MPs, writing letters to the editor, talking about it on Facebook and Twitter, and really elevating the public discussion about it, there might have been an incentive for the Feds to make the project happen sooner, rather than later. But a lot of people are just not interested in it (contrast that with the amount of interest from the general public when it comes to inner-city public transit, like the Relief Line in Toronto, or the Confederation Line in Ottawa).

I think part of the problem why the VIA HFR proposal failed to spark wide-spread excitement is the routing; it's not really in 'the corridor'. It would serve Peterborough, then course across the hinterland towards Ottawa. The population centres actually along The Corridor would be largely bypassed. Or perhaps the public has become immune to any government announcement regarding public transportation (or just about any other topic it seems). Making an announcement has become 'mission accomplished' for most governments.

 

[kEiThZ]

I know the "were it not for the jealousy in the ROC" argument for the lack of funding in passenger rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor gets thrown around a lot, but I don't buy that. I think it's just a convenient excuse for why bad plans don't actually get built. Yes, some people in the west still hold to the "let the eastern bastards freeze" mentality. Most couldn't give a flying fig though.

At the levels of funding we are talking about, you can bet it would be an issue. Keep in mind that VIA HFR was $4B just for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec. And that is without electrification. Windsor-Quebec would be at least $8B before electrification. Probably closer to $12B electrified. HSR would be > $20B.

If the federal Liberals announced a $20B for an Ontario-Quebec high speed train, you'd hear the shrieks from Alberta in Halifax. I'd bet money on it. And we all the know the federal Conservatives would never even consider such a project, so that's out.

Maybe part of the problem is that people in the Corridor don't care enough about rail, and intercity rail proposals, for any government to put their weight behind it.

The Quebec-Windsor corridor is arguably the only place in the country where you have people who regularly use VIA. If VIA was cut tomorrow, we'd feel probably feel the difference on the 401.

If, when VIA HFR was first announced, you had thousands of people contacting their local MPs, writing letters to the editor, talking about it on Facebook and Twitter, and really elevating the public discussion about it, there might have been an incentive for the Feds to make the project happen sooner, rather than later. But a lot of people are just not interested in it (contrast that with the amount of interest from the general public when it comes to inner-city public transit, like the Relief Line in Toronto, or the Confederation Line in Ottawa).

First, there's the difference between local and intercity travel. Local travel is a much bigger deal so there's always going to be a much larger constituency for it.

Next, most public transport schemes don't happen because of such large public demand for it. Even the examples you give show that. Ottawa's first rail plan was cancelled during an election. And Toronto's relief line has been talked about by the public for as long as I can remember. Yet, politician after politician has found other priorities more pressing. Think of all the subway extensions, LRTs and GO extensions and expansions built since the 80s when the DRL was proposed in Network 2011. And we're still a decade away from actually riding the DRL. If public demand was the driving consideration, the DRL would already be in service.

 

[robmausser]

Extra stations are sort of an easy win. Not as expensive as a new line. Relatively easy to do. And can be targeted to be politically beneficial (read, "Let's map out which ridings these stations fall in.").

Unfortunately in order for the new stations that are in-fill stations (not the extensions like Bowmanville) you need to electrify. The current rolling stock is too heavy and slow to properly serve all of them.

Plus they werent designed for 12 car length platforms.

So its kind of an 'all or nothing" situation

 

[ssiguy2]

As a Vancouverite I can tell you that that the howl would be huge if that kind of largess was dumped onto the Corridor. Conversely, people out here don't ever take the train. In Western Canada, VIA could disappear tomorrow and no one would notice save the politicians trying to make political points despite the fact having never set foot on a VIA train in their lifetimes. VERY few people have ever boarded a VIA rail train out here. It is viewed {and rightly so} as a tourist attraction and in no way shape or form a transportation line. BCers view VIA rail as Ontarians view the Maid of the Mist. The opposition however would be very muted if Ottawa did something to improve service out here, namely financing a HSR connection within our borders to Seattle and, of course, the Cal/Edmonton Corridor.

Anyway, it's all a mute point as HSR will never, ever get built in Canada. HFR maybe coming but will be completely ineffectual unless it comes with significantly faster travel and more reliable travel times. The slow boat to China making more runs doesn't change the fact that it's still a slow boat.