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High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

jje1000 said:
So I guess this project is dead for the foreseeable future?

The Conservatives did mention that they would fund the completion of the environmental assessment, but I presume that the project will stop there. Without Collenette or any other boosters within the Conservative government, it's hard to push forward an expensive project like this when the message of the day is tax cuts and austerity. The only way I would see a project like this continuing is in some form of slightly faster GO Transit, and even that's happening under a blue moon.
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To be honest, I'm not even sure this would have continued had the Liberals stayed in power. The Ontario hsr idea has been around for a while, and the costs of implementing it may be prohibitive at this time. Obviously if we're cutting taxes and dropping cap and trade, there's going to be even less money to play with.

In my opinion, a better option would be imitating what several US states like California or Washington have done with Amtrak. If the province partnered with VIA on HFR and helped fund the construction of separate tracks, we could go a long way in improving services. Not sure if Ford would be on for that though...
 
I do hope that the province and whoever is responsible for constructing the hsr network will do what they can to accommodate the rural communities but eventually they need to draw the line and tell the radical hardliners to GFT.
It's a shame that the minority small town folks have the power to dictate the future of 85% of the province.

As for the cons who just got in I sure hope they dont cancel the project. It took a generation to get to this stage. God knows how many more generations will it take to get it back off the ground if it gets shelved now
 
cplchanb said:
I do hope that the province and whoever is responsible for constructing the hsr network will do what they can to accommodate the rural communities but eventually they need to draw the line and tell the radical hardliners to GFT.
It's a shame that the minority small town folks have the power to dictate the future of 85% of the province.

As for the cons who just got in I sure hope they dont cancel the project. It took a generation to get to this stage. God knows how many more generations will it take to get it back off the ground if it gets shelved now
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You mean a line drawn on a map just before the 2014 election is "generations to get to this stage"? The Libs put up a photo op and were creating EA's to (1) justify that this photo op had the right line and (2) delay it so they didn't have to pay for it.
 
cplchanb said:
I do hope that the province and whoever is responsible for constructing the hsr network will do what they can to accommodate the rural communities but eventually they need to draw the line and tell the radical hardliners to GFT.
It's a shame that the minority small town folks have the power to dictate the future of 85% of the province.
Click to expand...

What does that bolded thing mean?
 
muller877 said:
You mean a line drawn on a map just before the 2014 election is "generations to get to this stage"? The Libs put up a photo op and were creating EA's to (1) justify that this photo op had the right line and (2) delay it so they didn't have to pay for it.
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as a matter of fact yes. the first high speed trains were in the 70s and 80s so yes, it did take a generation for people to mull about to today where they have actually put at the very least a semi conscious effort to build one.
 
TOareaFan said:
If so, it is bit of a strong reaction to some people who are just expressing their opinion....which, I believe is their right.
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opinion is one thing, but to knowingly try to sabotage a project that is proven to benefit millions of others just because you dont like how it is is just plain selfishness, regardless of their right to opinion.
IIRC there was an article from montreal posted on this thread last year regarding their rer plans and the public opinion was the opposite where they acknowledged that the greater good should be put first over their own individual desires.

This is a large part in why infrastructure here never gets built, takes 2 generations or bankrupts our cities. Too much time and resources spent on appeasing the smallest of minority lobby groups
 
TOareaFan said:
there is proof that this High Speed rail will benefit millions of others?

And, other than expressing their opinions, how are they sabotaging this project?
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The spinoffs will for sure benefit millions over the long run. Remember it's not just for citizens of Ontario but for tourists as well.

A ticket from Toronto to Windsor is guaranteed to be cheaper than air travel so it will be a plus for those who want to get there quickly but not want to blow hundreds for a 30 min flight.

We have seen what these lobbyist coalitions can do to undermine large infrastructure projects from the Spadina expressway (iirc that was called) in the 60s to today. Rhe Cornell terminal is a fine example of how long it took to redesign and convince enough of the few remaining naysayers to let it go through. Work is starting 13 years after the original proposed construction goal. It doesnt have to be just court injunctions that sabotage it. It can be simply planting an idea into a neutral person's head to make them believe as well in their opinion. Stirring public opinion is what these groups goals are
 
^ I believe the opponents were not lobbyists so much as just local folks who objected to the impacts of the project on their local area, which they saw as not getting any benefit - the trains would fly through without stopping. That's an understandable reason to oppose. Not saying they should prevail, but a process that went ahead without taking in their concerns and looking at ways of mitigating is quite unjust.

This isn't an urgent matter (like say determining the size of a city council just before an election) where it's acceptable for government to force a solution on people without consultation and discussion.

I'm a little dubious however that there is any value in proceeding with an EA, given that there is likely no longer a serious proponent to lay out the "pro" side of the case. I wonder what analysis the MOT might actually have done and what the internal ministry position on HSR was up to the election. If it was unenthusiastic, it might possibly see the light of day - good ammo for the PC's to use to shut the project down. If it was positive, it's probably already in the shredder, and not likely to come up unless the PC's decide to extend the 401 widening beyond Highway 8.

- Paul
 
HSR is still probably coming, but more quietly.

First, we're going to have improved GO service. Then electrification (not necessarily under Ford) comes to add allday 2way. Now comes a decade or two worth of grade separations. Then a procurement for 200kph express commuter trains. Then a new GO corridor extension (2 hours) to London that has 'provisions' for HSR. And finally, they finally decide to introduce a HSR (80min) at a much smaller infra-increment, now that infrastructure has been built to Kitchener and beyond.

2040 maybe? Could be 2030, 2035, 2045. Just not 2025.
 
cplchanb said:
The spinoffs will for sure benefit millions over the long run. Remember it's not just for citizens of Ontario but for tourists as well.
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So no proof but it is in the modern day "for sure" category.....gotcha ;)



cplchanb said:
A ticket from Toronto to Windsor is guaranteed to be cheaper than air travel so it will be a plus for those who want to get there quickly but not want to blow hundreds for a 30 min flight.
Click to expand...

Well, since very few make that trip by plane now anyway....we are still a long way away from benefiting millions. Most of the Windsor - Toronto trips are by car....and a legitimate question a lot of people have is how low do the fares have to be to attract a high percentage of car drivers over to the train and is the subsidy at that fare level worth it?


cplchanb said:
We have seen what these lobbyist coalitions can do to undermine large infrastructure projects from the Spadina expressway (iirc that was called) in the 60s to today. Rhe Cornell terminal is a fine example of how long it took to redesign and convince enough of the few remaining naysayers to let it go through. Work is starting 13 years after the original proposed construction goal. It doesnt have to be just court injunctions that sabotage it. It can be simply planting an idea into a neutral person's head to make them believe as well in their opinion. Stirring public opinion is what these groups goals are
Click to expand...

So, aside from the fact that you seem to be back to the simple notion that expressing a legitimately held opinion is, now, "sabotage"....I wonder how many people here (on an urbanist site talking about transit) actually view the "undermining" of the Spadina expressway as a bad thing?

Not sure how, in 2018, you can say work is starting 13 years after the original proposed starting date when the original proposal first surfaced just prior to the 2014 election.

Look, democracy is messy because we all get an opinion and a say.....so things take a while to get started....and sometimes they never get started.....but that is not "sabotage".
 
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