High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[KevinT]

Forced government rearranging of private ownership (not all farms are corporations)? Doesn't sound like a country I would want to live in.

I never said they should be forced.

 

[crs1026]

I am thinking though that if anybody actually wants to move on HSR, they'll have to start talking to TC. It'll probably be a joint effort to define regs.

Quite true. The issues that creates are

a) until they do that added work, we won’t have much confidence in cost estimates, nor will people concerned with local road impacts know for sure what those local impacts are and

b) it will add time to the design stage

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

I never said they should be forced.

Fair point. I was making an assumption in line with the general discussion that the government should 'do stuff' to make this happen.

 

[lenaitch]

I quite agree, but I trust that farmers are quite capable of sorting things out on their own. Farmer A says to Farmer B, look, you now have x acres on my side of the tracks, and I have y acres on your side of the tracks. What can we do about that? Maybe the Province pays for third party assessments or soil tests or expert advice or whatever to help ground these discussions towards a mutually workable solution. Some people will refuse to play, others will look for the opportunity. Maybe it solves enough problems to be constructive and mitigate enough of the pain. The key is for the province to look at how it can help, not get in the way or force solutions on people.



My gut says more often or not, the rail line would have to duck under grade so the farm equipment alignment has an unconstrained clearance. Lots of excavation. Water table and drainage issues galore.

Doable, but don’t underestimate the cost. I suspect the Collenette study assumed plain old inexpensive grade crossings. VIA’s HFR seemed to do this also. Contrast this with TGV, where there is a huge investment in barriers in any place where there is even a remote possibility of a vehicle (or a cow) reaching the tracks. SNCF simply does not experience the North American events you see on Youtube where a vehicle has somehow gotten onto the ROW somewhere. One of my concerns with the Collenette study is that they may have lowballed the grade separation cost to an extent that could completely invalidate the construction cost estimates.

Which is why I support doing the EA - just to see how well this is being studied.

- Paul

It could work so long as one farmer's X equals the other farmer's Y; otherwise, somebody is taking on debt. Around here, cash crop farmers rely heavily on working leased land. It's a bit of a vicious cycle: you need big equipment to maximize cost efficiency, but big equipment means you've got to keep those big wheels working. Some up here work well over 1000 acres, most of which they lease because nobody could reasonably assemble that amount of land. If S/W Ontario is anything similar, equipment mobility and access will loom large.

Some remain focused on HSR with very few stops. I am hard pressed to see a rural municipal tax base, especially a lower-tier one, coughing up share funding for things like grade separations or compensation packages when they will see no economic benefit.

Regardless, I am picking nits.

 

[steveintoronto]

I’m not able to find anything in that third document about railway track with a design speed above 95-100 mph. Am I missing something?

While the design of railway crossings below that top speed are very thoroughly laid out, I’m still not confident that TC has reached a level of comfort and specificity about higher train speeds that would let anyone implement a level crossing above that speed. Hence my belief that their response to an actual proposal will be “We will get back to you”.

- Paul

Class 7 rail doesn't exist yet in Canada. Class 6 limitation in Canada is 110mph, (177 kph), as it is in the US. The US allows Acela at grade crossings on Class 7 track @ 125 mph (200 kph+). It presents a conundrum in terms of how Canada is to move on this, something TC must face up to. HFR is touted to do 200 kph. And that includes remote level crossings. Doubtless, full warnings would be needed, and barriers.

That would be a vast improvement on Cdn Class 6 requirements at crossings.

Btw: VIA was/is allowed to do 110 mph on certain routes, Lakeshore being one.

 

[holographic plastic]

Well I guess we can kiss this project goodbye, at least for the next 4 years anyways.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Can probably shut this thread for another four years or so, now, or at least the discussion about the cross-country route.

 

[steveintoronto]

Well I guess we can kiss this project goodbye, at least for the next 4 years anyways.

Can probably shut this thread for another four years or so, now, or at least the discussion about the cross-country route.

For "HSR" to London and beyond? Agreed.

For "Higher Speed Rail" Toronto to London? The demand is still there, and so will the local political pressure to provide it. The most vociferous voices were business ones. Ford may be premier, but he's just one voice...if you can even call it that. He's a puppet, on a good day.

 

[crs1026]

It could work so long as one farmer's X equals the other farmer's Y; otherwise, somebody is taking on debt. Around here, cash crop farmers rely heavily on working leased land. It's a bit of a vicious cycle: you need big equipment to maximize cost efficiency, but big equipment means you've got to keep those big wheels working. Some up here work well over 1000 acres, most of which they lease because nobody could reasonably assemble that amount of land. If S/W Ontario is anything similar, equipment mobility and access will loom large.

The 1,000 acre lease scenario actually makes me feel more confident in the ability to work things out. Any one farmer’s business plan will be less tied to seeing a particular lot severed, the impact is how badly their overall mobility and logistics are affected.

I drive the Oxford back roads south of the 401 much more often than to the north, but I am conscious of just how many Mennonite communities there are out there. That’s a whole ‘nother set of farming economics and sensitivities to factor in.

Some remain focused on HSR with very few stops. I am hard pressed to see a rural municipal tax base, especially a lower-tier one, coughing up share funding for things like grade separations or compensation packages when they will see no economic benefit.

Thats where there will have to be some deep pockets and some political capital invested. The province won’t grow if everyone puts their own local needs first, but there has to be some quid pro quo for those who watch the trains flash by.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Will London just get GO service now?

 

[crs1026]

Will London just get GO service now?

I'm looking at the election results map, and I see the most likely places for rail stops are all orange, and all the areas that they will go through without stopping are blue.

I'd say London will get nothing. GO Bus, maybe.

- Paul

 

[innsertnamehere]

The PC's under Brown's platform promised to continue HSR studies. I believe local candidates during the election continued that stance after Ford became leader. It's not explicitly dead.

This whole project has never been anything more than political posturing anyway.

 

[TOareaFan]

Will London just get GO service now?

What London should want/push for is better Via Service....the type of service they offer and the type of trains they use are far more suitable for trips of that length. Not sure how people in KW and Barrie put up with 2 hours on a GO train....but anything longer than that seems just unfathomable.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm looking at the election results map, and I see the most likely places for rail stops are all orange, and all the areas that they will go through without stopping are blue.

I'd say London will get nothing. GO Bus, maybe.

- Paul

What London should want/push for is better Via Service....the type of service they offer and the type of trains they use are far more suitable for trips of that length. Not sure how people in KW and Barrie put up with 2 hours on a GO train....but anything longer than that seems just unfathomable.

The PC's under Brown's platform promised to continue HSR studies. I believe local candidates during the election continued that stance after Ford became leader. It's not explicitly dead.

This whole project has never been anything more than political posturing anyway.

The tracks are in horrible condition in some spots on those lines which is why it takes so long. I think London will get something, which is like ToareaFan said more via service. I do think GO trains might be cheaper, if done at high frequecy rail.

 

[lenaitch]

I drive the Oxford back roads south of the 401 much more often than to the north, but I am conscious of just how many Mennonite communities there are out there. That’s a whole ‘nother set of farming economics and sensitivities to factor in.
- Paul

Good point about the Mennonite communities; although depending on the 'order' the issue of large equipment may be less of an issue! Although they do live with a strong sense of community, many are becoming rather pragmatic about where that community is. There are significant numbers east of Sault Ste. Marie as well as the clay belt of New Liskeard/Haileybury and on up towards Cochrane. I spoke to a few near The Soo last year and most were from the Oxford/K-W area and had sold their land for big bucks and bought their northern farms for a comparative song. They are quite adept at successfully farming marginal land and are making a significant impact on areas that had seen better days.