High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[innsertnamehere]

I know Bradford is actively planning some huge sprawling industrial complex along the 400, and the province is even somewhat supporting it by giving them a new interchange at 5th concession.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

just a note, but I don't believe the "2.0" lands have been added. That means Guelph, Bradford, etc. Aren't covered. Areas in Pickering and Markham covered by "greenbelt 2.0" are already being developed.

That would be Seaton in Pickering wouldn't it? Yech.

 

[royalrivers]

Hate the burst the bubble on the whole "High Speed Rail/Trains" but it's not what you thought they meant...

Thursday, April, 17, 2014 - Guelph Tribune
http://www.guelphtribune.ca/news/slow-down-on-idea-of-high-speed-rail-service-advises-sandals/

Slow down on idea of high-speed rail service, advises Sandals

By Doug Hallett
Guelph Tribune

The Liberal government announced more details about its plan for boosting Ontario’s transportation network this week, but local MPP Liz Sandals says news of a “high-speed†rail service in this area isn’t quite what it might appear.

“It isn’t what Europeans would recognize as high-speed rail,†Sandals said Tuesday. “It’s what we call express rail, so it runs on the regular tracks.â€
Sandals was asked for clarification after Ontario Transportation Minister Glen Murray said his government plans to deliver high-speed rail service connecting Toronto and Pearson airport with Kitchener and London within 10 years.

Premier Kathleen Wynne announced in March that by the end of 2016, the number of GO trains going from Kitchener and Guelph to Toronto will be doubled – from two each way to four each way on weekdays. Wynne also spoke about later adding two-way, all-day GO train service to this area, as well as express trains.

Sandals said Tuesday that she couldn’t comment on Murray’s statement that London would be served as well as Kitchener and Guelph. “I honestly don’t know, because I’ve been worrying about Guelph,†she said in an interview.

As for travelling to Toronto’s international airport on a GO train from this part of Ontario, Sandals said this would involve a transfer at the Weston station.
The transfer would be to a new airport express train that’s to go into operation in time for the 2015 Pan American Games in the Toronto area. The airport express is to run between downtown Toronto and the airport, partly on a newly built spur line, she said.

Any express trains serving this area would go into operation sometime after the doubling of the current GO train service, which will require the building of a new train layover in Baden, Sandals said.

Express trains would be quicker for two reasons, she said. After picking up passengers in Kitchener and Guelph these GO trains wouldn’t stop at the many stations on the way to Toronto. And this, she said, would allow the express trains to be smaller than the “great big 12-car trains†that are currently in use here.

“Obviously, you can run the train faster if it’s a bit lighter.â€

GO trains are currently third on the pecking order on the CN North Mainline, Sandals said. The freight trains of the Goderich-Exeter Railway, a U.S. subsidiary, are at the top. VIA Rail trains have second priority. This will have to change before two-way, all-day GO trains can serve this area, said Sandals.

Sandals said full-day, two-way service will require either double tracking from Georgetown to Kitchener or “a lot of layovers where trains can pass.†The CN North Mainline is currently double-tracked as far as Georgetown, but it has single tracks west of there.

Wynne announced plans Monday for dedicated and substantial funding for public transit and the province’s transportation infrastructure. More details will be part of the budget the government is to bring down next month.

Wynne said the province would create two dedicated funds, including one for the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area with up to $15 billion available for investment in transit. The other, for the rest of the province, would have nearly $14 billion available for investment in roads, bridges, transit and other critical infrastructure.

Funding sources for these funds are to include “new revenues measures, repurposed revenues and a responsile level of debt financing, when needed,†a government news release said.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Guelphs MPP seems a bit confused.. First of all Guelph wouldn't even be served by the HSR line. Also, the MPP seems to be talking about the express trains they want to introduce in 2016, not the HSR service which would presumably not be opening until 2020 or later. she is talking about the short term improvements such as the doubling of GO service to Kitchener with the express train, not the HSR which is longer term. those express trains will probably operate for 5 or 6 years before being replaced by the HSR.

 

[Adjei]

Seems at this point no one really knows what's going on. We need actual conformation of some of this stuff from people at Metrolinx, not some tweets from Murray who I think is in way over his head with some of this stuff.

 

[1overcosc]

Murray has made enough clarifications on the HSR proposal for us to know that what Guelph MPP is referring to it is NOT the HSR.

She's referring to the conventional GO REX that will run in the area paralleling the HSR. (It sounds like we have now confirmed that electric, local GO REX will run to Kitchener as well providing for 2 tiers of TO-Kitchener rail service)

 

[royalrivers]

Murray has made enough clarifications on the HSR proposal for us to know that what Guelph MPP is referring to it is NOT the HSR.

She's referring to the conventional GO REX that will run in the area paralleling the HSR. (It sounds like we have now confirmed that electric, local GO REX will run to Kitchener as well providing for 2 tiers of TO-Kitchener rail service)

Until I see some official documents on paper confirming all this from Metrolinx/GO Transit/Government of Ontario all of this is just talk as usual. (and trying to get your votes )

Glen keeps saying wait until the budget - the many times I have heard him say that has made it a drinking game - and I'm now in need of a new liver!

 

[MrsNesbitt]

I wouldn't trust Sandals if she's out there making comments contradicting Murray. Especially on such points as the speed where he's expressly clarified the province is aiming for European style high speed rail of 300+ km/h. She's also Education Minister if I recall correctly so it seems a little weird that she's out there making pointed comments on transportation issues.

 

[rbt]

Glen keeps saying wait until the budget

Budget might define a rough cost for the project. I'm going to wait for the EA which should start pretty damn soon after the budget to get this thing running within 10 years.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I wouldn't trust Sandals if she's out there making comments contradicting Murray. Especially on such points as the speed where he's expressly clarified the province is aiming for European style high speed rail of 300+ km/h. She's also Education Minister if I recall correctly so it seems a little weird that she's out there making pointed comments on transportation issues.

Whether she's the education minister is irrelevant. First and foremost she is the MPP for her riding, and her immediate need is to get reelected by her constituents. To do so, she should shield herself against empty promises that probably can't be kept. Glen Murray might be able to tell people in Guelph with a straight face that they'll be riding in bullet trains in ten years, but he doesn't have to be elected by them so he can get away with this.

The AD2W diesel express GO service that Sandals states on the record in a printed newspaper article sounds a lot more plausible, and probably can be promised with a straight face. For one, it's a lot more detailed than what Glen Murray has suggested - which, so far, has just been in the form of tweets and some speech that we only have TOareaFan's third party account of. Secondly, a lot of what she inadvertently mentions has the trademark Metrolinx flaws to it: forcing a doubling-back transfer at Weston for passengers coming in from the west wishing to go to the airport by UPX. This essentially confirms that UPX will continue to be the sole provider of airport service and that the politically-influenced mistake of building a Weston UPX station is "justified" by connecting passengers from the west.

Until I see some official documents on paper confirming all this from Metrolinx/GO Transit/Government of Ontario all of this is just talk as usual. (and trying to get your votes )

Glen keeps saying wait until the budget - the many times I have heard him say that has made it a drinking game - and I'm now in need of a new liver!

Tell me about it. If I were an influential member of the Ontario Liberal Party, I would tell Glen Murray to put a sock in it. His transit "promises" could seriously jeopardize Liberal MPPs in fragile outer-905 ridings. The promise of 320 km/h HSR to London in 10 years is one example, as is the promise of 15 minute electrified service to Niagara in the same timeframe (maybe he conveniently forgot about the need to build a major viaduct over the Welland canal).

 

[ehlow]

My interpretation of the article is that Guelph residents are expressing their anger/confusion to their MPPs and their MPPs are saying "don't worry Guelph will get GO service to Pearson & Toronto too". Although I would guess the MPPs don't know what's happening either lol.

No matter what you do you anger certain groups. If you stop in Guelph you anger people in Kitchener and London for slowing their train down. If you don't stop in Guelph you anger people in Guelph. Same thing with Brampton, or anywhere else along this route.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Whether she's the education minister is irrelevant. First and foremost she is the MPP for her riding, and her immediate need is to get reelected by her constituents. To do so, she should shield herself against empty promises that probably can't be kept. Glen Murray might be able to tell people in Guelph with a straight face that they'll be riding in bullet trains in ten years, but he doesn't have to be elected by them so he can get away with this.

We I think can all agree here that Murray is big on talking and letting things slip that he shouldn't, but that doesn't change the fact that Sandals is confusing the HSR with the GO REX service that Guelph will be getting. She's going out and saying that there will be no European-style high speed service, which is true to her community since they (theoretically) will be getting expanded GO REX service, but she's doing it in such a way as to obfuscate the already-announced details and nuances of the split between the high speed and GO services.

Frankly at this point I just wish we had a better, more concrete outline of the plan at hand. The details we've gotten about this whole project so far are sketchy enough that it leads us all to make our own assumptions.

 

[gweed123]

Frankly at this point I just wish we had a better, more concrete outline of the plan at hand. The details we've gotten about this whole project so far are sketchy enough that it leads us all to make our own assumptions.

Heck, even a map would be nice. At least then we'd know alignments and station stops.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Re. service to Toronto Pearson. Doesn't the track in London pass close to London's international airport? Would a connection to London airport not solve a whole bunch of the 'secondary regional reliever' airport problems? If London's airport were to expand to have more service I wonder what the breaking point would be in attracting Western GTA residents (and K/W, G, etc) away from Pearson and toward London. Anything that takes pressure off of Pearson would further push Pickering towards the back burner.

 

[Adjei]

Well this is what Murray said about it on twitter:

‏@Glen4ONT 10h
Wait until the full announcement. RER & HSR will be elaborated. Guelph will be well served.