High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[TOareaFan]

That is the initial service plan. The province is planning all day GO service to Kitchener, but it's not a part of the RER service plan, it's at a later date since it requires the freight bypass. At least, that is my understanding.

It all needs the freight bypass....ReR service level to Bramalea...needs the bypass.....ReR service level to Mt Pleasant...needs the bypass......HSR through the corridor....needs the bypass.

Yet they are announcing all of that even though they have not, yet, been successful in getting CN to agree to the bypass nor have they planned the bypass or built it.

So, no, there is no plan currently to extend all day GO to Kitchner.....the HSR running 2 times an hour is the all day service to Kitchener.

 

[innsertnamehere]

HSR needs the bypass as well. RER to Bramalea is all that has been promised without it, from my understanding. Any service increase through downtown Brampton significantly beyond what is currently there needs Freight to be off the corridor.

CN has signed an agreement in principle for the bypass, and they are starting the EA. It should happen (at least under a liberal government), but it takes more time than is available in the RER planning horizon (2025).

 

[crs1026]

^This briefing is from last year and reinforces that GO Service to Kitchener has been envisioned as peak direction only in rush hour. Which it pretty much already is.

I won't research all the other previous documents and politicians' statements that said something different, but I feel confident in saying that this is another example where ML is rewriting history to undo a previous promise, which may have originated in the political level but which ML certainly made an initial effort to execute while covering its tracks so it could back away eventually.

If they have made a decision that all the Kitchener eggs lie in the HSR basket, I'm OK with that, as I never was keen on 63-mile 2WAD stopping GO services. But that means we have to get HSR right. It can't stop everywhere, but leaving Brampton out of both RER (2WAD to Bramalea only, it seems) and HSR (south of the airport routing) seems wrongheaded.

Sure feels like Kitchener HSR will die with the election - at best there will be the EA and further study for another 5 years, anyways - and GO service will stay pretty much as is. Wynne can already declare victory on the GO front, having actually delivered next to nothing.

It still begs the question, do we have an agreement with CN for west of Bramalea, and if not, why not.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

HSR needs the bypass as well. RER to Bramalea is all that has been promised without it, from my understanding. Any service increase through downtown Brampton significantly beyond what is currently there needs Freight to be off the corridor.

CN has signed an agreement in principle for the bypass, and they are starting the EA. It should happen (at least under a liberal government), but it takes more time than is available in the RER planning horizon (2025).

Since the unfulfilled 2016 budget promise of evening and weekend service by March 2017, there has been no talk (absolutely zero) of any additional rail service to anwhere in Brampton (including Bramalea) and any question about additional service is deflected by some vague answer (clearly scripted) about the commitment to the bypass and 15 minute all day 7days a week electric service.*

So the obvious conclusion is that somewhere along the line the government found out (either from Metrolinx or CN) that they can't even get evening and weekend hourly trains into Bramalea without the bypass....so ReR type service to Bramalea without the bypass is fantasy at best.

*note....same vague answers are given when inquiry about the other unfulfilled government promise re: GO service on the line (ie. provision of 12 car trains) so there must also be an issue there.

 

[TOareaFan]

It still begs the question, do we have an agreement with CN for west of Bramalea, and if not, why not.

- Paul

You have to get an agreement for just East of Bramalea first....no?

 

[ADRM]

Have any of the reports issued to-date discussed specific potential rolling stock options?

 

[steveintoronto]

I would love to see HSR.

But this promise is pretty easy for Conservatives or critics in general to pick apart. The costs are huge.

Have we learned nothing from UPX?

Kelly McParland: Kathleen Wynne, feeling that Disney magic, has got a super train for you
For those not mesmerized by the prospect of low-emission locomotives hurtling across the countryside, serious questions remain
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/kel...at-disney-magic-has-got-a-super-train-for-you

 

[Streety McCarface]

Of all the potential rail capacity expansion projects in Canada I can possibly imagine, I struggle to identify one which would have a lower Benefit-to-Cost Ratio (BCR) and enjoy a lower priority than adding a third track on the short 2,600 meter section where trains have to pass underneath the Detroit River...

Was comparing the benefits of a tunnel to widening the freeway expansion, since the majority of traffic between Detroit and London is freight, and a tunnel could allow for HSR to enter the US. Of course it would be extremely low on rail priorities, but compared to freeway expansion?

 

[narduch]

Kelly McParland: Kathleen Wynne, feeling that Disney magic, has got a super train for you
For those not mesmerized by the prospect of low-emission locomotives hurtling across the countryside, serious questions remain
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/kel...at-disney-magic-has-got-a-super-train-for-you

Wouldn't it make more sense to start with HSR between Toronto and Montreal?

I guess though that would have to be on the national level and doesn't work as an Ontario Election promise.

 

[steveintoronto]

CN has signed an agreement in principle for the bypass,

It still begs the question, do we have an agreement with CN for west of Bramalea, and if not, why not.

Indeed, an "Agreement in Principle" means absolutely nothing. "Simon Says" has just as much standing legally.

Have any of the reports issued to-date discussed specific potential rolling stock options?

Here's a point I addressed earlier in today in this string. There are stated conflicts. Serious ones. QP's statement for High Speed states "electric trains". Not Hydrogen. It's a bit moot as HSR as claimed will never get built, but it's indicative of how scatterbrained and desperate this game has become.

Wouldn't it make more sense to start with HSR between Toronto and Montreal?

I guess though that would have to be on the national level and doesn't work as an Ontario Election promise.

Well they do tie together, but the FedLibs have studiously avoided mentioning the OntHSR, not least because it's an embarrassment, and flies in the face of Desjardins-Siciliano's stance for HFR, which is well-founded and analytical.

It must rankle the Feds that QP keeps talking "HSR" when they could/should be talking "HFR extension". A fraction of the price, and almost as fast.

Instead, Wynne spins a desperate dream. Ontarians might be naive, but they're not completely stupid. They know what they've been promised prior...and I venture another point on this:

The FedLibs, given enough support by Quebec and Ontario to extend Montreal/Toronto HFR each end, would feel they had the overwhelming public support to invoke politically dangerous parts of the various Railway/Transportation Acts to impose a solution re Freight Bypass on the Class 1 railways and then start planning a *realistic* passenger plan for the corridor that carries 95% of all rail passenger traffic in Canada.

Could the Feds do this by themselves? Absolutely, but they won't, unless the PQ and Ont are also on-board.

Wynne is estranging the Feds on rail policy, and doing herself an incredible disfavour at the same time.

 

[hw621]

Wouldn't it make more sense to start with HSR between Toronto and Montreal?

I guess though that would have to be on the national level and doesn't work as an Ontario Election promise.

How difficult do you think it is to get the Feds, Ontario and Quebec to sit down and agree on something, with a huge price tag?

 

[narduch]

How difficult do you think it is to get the Feds, Ontario and Quebec to sit down and agree on something, with a huge price tag?

What is the point of all this? To produce good infrastructure that we need? Or to swindle people with promises to help get elected?

 

[aquateam]

Wouldn't it make more sense to start with HSR between Toronto and Montreal?

I guess though that would have to be on the national level and doesn't work as an Ontario Election promise.

What about HSR between Toronto and Ottawa?

• It would go from the Province's capitol to the country's capitol
• Entirely within Ontario (no cross-province coordination to worry about).
• Gets you 2/3rds of the way from Toronto to Montreal much faster while the federal/quebec government worries about improving the remaining leg.

 

[steveintoronto]

How difficult do you think it is to get the Feds, Ontario and Quebec to sit down and agree on something, with a huge price tag?

Ironically, price isn't the major issue. Done right, investors would buy-in on this. The courage is in the *politics* of invoking what's already on the books in terms of the Transportation and Crossing Acts.
Railway Relocation and Crossing Act - Laws–lois.justice.gc.ca

In fact, I'll venture even further: As Desjardins-Siciliano has researched and promoted, and has the Feds behind him (late but present): If the jurisdictions clear the political and legal technicalities, at least the RoW, if not the whole operation, could be done privately. The Cdn Infrastructure Bank and/or provincial equivalents may or may not be involved. Much more likely that one aspect would be totally private (like the RoW) and the other government but leased (like the carriers, VIA, GO, AMT).

But Wynne had best start talking tangibles, not nonsense. If I were the FedLibs right now, I'd keep her at a distance.

 

[crs1026]

What is the point of all this? To produce good infrastructure that we need? Or to swindle people with promises to help get elected?

You're getting warmer as you go.....

- Paul