Head of Slips (Waterfront Toronto, West 8/DTAH)

[OldManKensey]

The new heads of slips are meant to unify and strengthen the central waterfront, so I think that discussing other shortomings of the area is somewhat relevant in terms of context.

I recently began working in the (horrendous) Toronto Star building. Until then, I had not spent very much time in the dead region of Queen's Quay between Yonge and York. I agree with the above comment - this area is a disaster. Walking to the York / QQ Starbucks in the afternoon, it's amazing how much more open the area feels as soon as you are on the West side of York, and out of the tunnel that has been created to the East. Tall buildings on the North side of the street are no poblem - many other lakeside and coastal towns (Rio, Chicago) have non-stop lines of highrises opposite the waterfront. Placing highrises - or, for that matter, buildings of any sort - between the water's edge and the street, however, destroys the waterfront. Another egregious examply is the small condo building to the west of the second phase of HTO, and the Radisson hotel between York and Spadina.

Becuase the south side of the street is tremendously built up between Yonge and York -- and becuase there is virtually no street level retail in that area - I feel like this stretch of QQ will never be anything more than a tunnel, regardless of how much landscaping / roadwork is done as part of the plans submitted by West8 et al.

 

[AKS]

Now that you mention it, I do enjoy walking more along the side of QQ west of York St. There seems more entertainment and happening things there. After that is a boring strip of walking. I don't think things will change since they seem to be building more buildings along the east side of Yonge. Pier 27, the EDCO building and east bay. I guess the entertainment starts at York St heading west. Or else head to the St.Lawrence Market area for East of Yonge entertainment.

 

[interchange42]

The original planning blunder on the waterfront was the stretch in the centre of the city from York to Yonge St. Harbourside condos and the Harbour Castle are a wall of cement if ever there was one. Take a walk along Queens Quay in that stretch and I think that will explain what the 'wall' means. Utterly bleak and lifeless - right dead centre in the city. The lake access in those blocks is obscure and underused for that reason. Even the ferry entrance is minimalized for some unknown reason (countless times I've had to point visitors to the ferry terminal as the lake at Bay and Queens Quay is not visible - there's actually a mound of earth placed to block the lake view! - and signage is pitiful). Solution: remove all retail and parking from the ground level of the condos and open it up to a clear lake view, even if only one-storey and supporting pillars of course remain.

I mostly agree with your characterization of the problem, but I think your solution would only leave us with an unwelcoming, dingy, ugly, useless ground level. There have got to be better ways to lead more people around the Harbour Square complex to the lake... but then there also needs to be upgraded parkland along the harbour wall here too to make that worthwhile anyway.

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[AKS]

I wonder if having a mall there would liven up the place. I notice in HK, there's tons of malls and it's always busy with people hanging out. Well at popular malls. And sometimes they would hold events there.

 

[adma]

Placing highrises - or, for that matter, buildings of any sort - between the water's edge and the street, however, destroys the waterfront. Another egregious examply is the small condo building to the west of the second phase of HTO, and the Radisson hotel between York and Spadina.

Though remember that the Harbour Square complex--or at least the concept thereof--predates and is separate from the rest of the Harbourfront condo zone; and perhaps motivated whatever "planning sensitivity" they tried from the first condo inroads in the 80s.

Aesthetically at least, the betwixt-HTO condo is actually a *superior* demonstration of how to build at the water's edge; and the Radisson's basically inoffensive, and doesn't really front on the water anyway, even if it's south of Queen's Quay.

Bear in mind, too, that the non-Harbour Square buildings which really started the anti-Queen's-Quay-condo backlash in the 80s, Harbourpoint and Harbourside, are on the north side. As is the generally loathed Motel Strip condo zone in Etobicoke...

 

[Archivist]

I agree that Harbour Square is a huge blunder, ugly and overwhelming. I don't think too much of the of plowing out the ground levels to show the lake - that seems highly unappealing to me. Something to disguise the overhead parking might help, but honest, I was down there yesterday and I thought, "there is nothing we can do about Harbour Square". It's just so bad.

After that, the waterfront is pretty good and getting better all the time. But Harbour Square is just this huge lump of bleh in the middle of it all.

 

[taal]

I'll chip in here ... I'm completely in agreement with most of the comments above.

The good news: It's a pretty small stretch and they've been carefull not to allow the same mistake happen again (at least on the centeral waterfront)

The bad news: It's in a key location!
The worse news: Unfortunately I don't really see it changing. Getting rid of the limited retail so there's a view through the first story will not accomplish much, it'll make the area even more dreary so I wouldn't suggest it. The only solution is the implosion of the entire buildings. That'll never happen - these are high end condos / rentals / hotels.

I think West 8 will take the focus off the building and to the street.
Once the area of Lakeshore to the East is developed and we have a continuous "good" stretch with this bad spot in the center we should be fine.

 

[Tewder]

I'm very skeptical about the whole waterfront development process and what is unfolding. The parcelling off of large waterfront plots (Pier 'whatever' and Tedco bla bla bla) seems to indicate to me that nothing was learned from Harbourfront. Once you cut through all the rhetoric you realize that the central city waterfront has been traded off to massive private interests through back-room deals that one can only speculate about. Shame. Other parts of the waterfront are better, including some of the parks, but on the whole they are pretty average destinations. Like the park down the end of my street, they are nice to use because you live nearby but you wouldn't go out of your way for it...

None of this is a crime and the waterfront does function better for many, for those who will enjoy the private views from their offices or living rooms, and for those who will venture down to use the green spaces that have been allotted to them near the water, no matter how mediocre those spaces are. If that's what you envisage for the waterfront then you are probably quite content. That said, this is clearly not the 'grand' vision for a spectacular revitalized waterfront that many waited so long to see, which maybe was just never realistically ever going to happen in Toronto, and in that sense the waterfront is symptomatic of larger core issues that seem to continue to plague development initiatives in the city.

 

[grey]

Tewder, you've seen the waterfront masterplan, right? I mean how the eastbound lane of QQ is being converted into a tree-lined pedestrian pathway next to the streetcar ROW? The revitalization is more than just head of silps and HTO.

I talking about all of this happy fun stuff:

I think this is an enormous improvement to the public realm. And, even in its current shabby state, QQ is already very busy destination that draws tons of people when the weather's nice.

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

I mostly agree with your characterization of the problem, but I think your solution would only leave us with an unwelcoming, dingy, ugly, useless ground level. There have got to be better ways to lead more people around the Harbour Square complex to the lake... but then there also needs to be upgraded parkland along the harbour wall here too to make that worthwhile anyway.

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I think it would work if you took away two floors, and created some beautiful architectural element to bury the existing (and reinforced) pillars.

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

I think this is an enormous improvement to the public realm. And, even in its current shabby state, QQ is already very busy destination that draws tons of people when the weather's nice.

Completely agree. While the schemes arent the most elaborate or unique ever made, they are simple and yet beautiful and will mean a massive transformation of the Waterfront for us.

And not only that, but if we were to fast forward to the year 2030, when, if executed properly and to plan, the entire waterfront is completed... it will be quite remarkable.

 

[OldManKensey]

I agree that the re-building of QQ (reduction to two lanes, addition of trees and pedestrian path, etc) has massive potential to improve the area, allthough I am not sure how much it will be able to change the dark Westin / Harbour stretch. It will, however, make the central waterfront infinitely better.

I also hold out some hope that Pier 27 and Corus, both approved for the south side of QQ, will be huge improvements on Westin and Harbour Square. Both are relatively low-rise, which should make them more similar to QQTerminal and the Power Plant (neither of which I have ever heard anyone complain about -- the parking lot between them notwithstanding). The planned park at the bottom of Jarvis should also help draw people out to the public boardwalk, similar to how the wide pier at the bottom of York draws people out to the south side of QQTerminal. The newer low-rises are also clad in less oppressive material, so they should have less of a Soviet feel than Westin and Harbour Square.

 

[interchange42]

I hold out some hope that someday we'll hear that the Westin Conference Centre - the ugliest building in the whole district - will be entirely rebuilt. Fixing that thing would fix so much about the area.

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[khris]

So is this going to just be a general waterfront development discussion? I want to know where to put information I come across.

 

[Dan416]

Haven't walked around QQ since the summer. Can someone post pictures of the buildings you're referring to for, um reference please and thanks?