Brans89
Banned
Bob Young does to want the stadium at West Harbour, and the team is not for sale. He owns the team.
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Hamilton - Tim Horton's Field
- Thread starter wyliepoon
- Start date
DC83
Senior Member
Hmmm, I don't quite understand..
But take a minute to check out all the benefits of a Downtown Stadium vs. Suburban Parking Lot where Bob Young can enjoy a Parking & Concessions monopoly: http://ourcityourfuture.ca/
Also, here's a random new proposal for West Harbour. If anything, it's saying 'Yes, Bob Young, this area can be developed':
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/811397
... I still prefer the original..
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DC83
Senior Member
Video showcasing the West Harbour's surroudings
[video=youtube;H4XsXIHis2Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4XsXIHis2Q[/video]
from the OurCityOurFutre youtube page
[video=youtube;H4XsXIHis2Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4XsXIHis2Q[/video]
from the OurCityOurFutre youtube page
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Kiwi
Active Member
Photos from Flar, a forum member here.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Hmmm, I don't quite understand..
But take a minute to check out all the benefits of a Downtown Stadium vs. Suburban Parking Lot where Bob Young can enjoy a Parking & Concessions monopoly: http://ourcityourfuture.ca/
Also, here's a random new proposal for West Harbour. If anything, it's saying 'Yes, Bob Young, this area can be developed':
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/811397
... I still prefer the original..
Anyone go to that guy's page where he gives the details of what he is proposing......this fanciful bit made it lose a bit of credibility for me:
http://hamiltonbay.blogspot.com/ said:
That is a lot of other people's money he is spending.......no indication he has asked them if they would do that....also a much grander stadium than anyone I have ever heard discuss........not sure MLS will ever expand beyond the current 3 teams in Canada but, if they do, I am pretty sure Hamilton would not be #4....etc etc etc.
This guy's "proposal" really amounts to "I bought this land 13 years ago and have not been able to do anything with it, why not sieze on a current political hot potato item like the stadium to push for the new zoning I need so that, maybe, I can build some condos and get some cash back!".
I have no idea where the stadium in Hamilton should be (not from there or spend a lot of time there) but I would not spend a lot of time on this guy's "proposal".
DC83
Senior Member
I have to agree with you on the 'proposal'.
As for MLS coming to Hamilton, ya right. MLSE would never let that happen (Remember Balsillie & the..Penguins/Predators/Coyotes?).
IMO, this ['proposal'] is just representative of everythin Bob Young says the West Harbour lacks. So even if this proposal is just a guy trying to cash in on property speculation (which in Hamilton's case seems likely), at least he's saying that the site is indeed viable.
That, backed up by Katz & AEG's comments that they love the West Harbour site and would be interested in bringing a soccer team here (Source), along with the ongoing support from young professionals and their associations alike (such as Ham-Burl Reators Assoc., Downtown Hamilton BIA, McMaster University Student's Union, James St North business leaders, and several other businesses around the downtown wich are display their own messages to council through signage, such as Kanesky's Sports & Pane Del Sol eatery) all prove that the community is really behind the West Harbour!
PLEASE show your support and sign the petition! We cannot let Hamilton City Council invest our $60 Million future fund in a suburban parking lot! Lets use that to clean a brownfield and build a community-based civic stadium much like Ivor Wynn!
As for MLS coming to Hamilton, ya right. MLSE would never let that happen (Remember Balsillie & the..Penguins/Predators/Coyotes?).
IMO, this ['proposal'] is just representative of everythin Bob Young says the West Harbour lacks. So even if this proposal is just a guy trying to cash in on property speculation (which in Hamilton's case seems likely), at least he's saying that the site is indeed viable.
That, backed up by Katz & AEG's comments that they love the West Harbour site and would be interested in bringing a soccer team here (Source), along with the ongoing support from young professionals and their associations alike (such as Ham-Burl Reators Assoc., Downtown Hamilton BIA, McMaster University Student's Union, James St North business leaders, and several other businesses around the downtown wich are display their own messages to council through signage, such as Kanesky's Sports & Pane Del Sol eatery) all prove that the community is really behind the West Harbour!
PLEASE show your support and sign the petition! We cannot let Hamilton City Council invest our $60 Million future fund in a suburban parking lot! Lets use that to clean a brownfield and build a community-based civic stadium much like Ivor Wynn!
TOareaFan
Superstar
There are lots of reasons MLS would not come to Hamilton, not sure MLSE is one of them but if they are they are way, way down the list.
The main reason Young wants a suburban(ish) location is for highway access and visibility. Mainly the visiibility......selling the naming rights (which is a right he would expect to be given in exchange for his capital contribution) is a lot easier if the stadium gets driven past by a lot of vehicles. MLSE did this with BMO field...aside from the obvious numbers of people who now go there, selling the naming rights at that stadium was made a lot easier because it got the sponsor clearly visibile signage on the Gardiner expressway.
Again, I am not from Hamilton and not going to opine on the relative merits of the stadium locations, it just strikes me that, other than the city, most of the people/groups who support the west harbour do not and will not operate businesses there and will not have any of their own money invested there. Sure the theoretical value of a downtown stadium with lots of activity and the regeneration that it may bring (different places have different experiences with this approach) sounds great....but if the stadium is empty because there is no tenant it can be a bigger blight than what it replaces.
I wish Hamilton well in its decision, it is a tough one. I do hope, however, that they make it and soon. I think the Pan Am games (and it would do the harbour proponents well to update, at least, their site plan to show a Pan Am games stadium as opposed to a Commonwealth games stadium) people really need to hold them to a deadline and, as tough as it seems, be ready with a new plan if Hamilton fails to decide. These games are too important to the region as a hold to allow indecision on this site issue to cause delay.
DC83
Senior Member
You're totally right, way too important to this region! So are we going to showcase it by bussing athletes and spectators on a 1.5hr bus ride along our highways, or a 45min electric GO train ride right into the stadium grounds?
I understand naming rights, but can't grasp the concept that somehow those driving past in cars count, however the thousands of people who walk, cycle, skate, drive by the West Harbour currently don't count? Is it because they're not from the U.S.? What about the Amtrak trains that pass daily? As well as VIA? And GO?
In reality, it has to do with parking & concessions. In an East Mountain location, he would have a monopoly on parking. At the West Harbour, there are dozens of Public & Private lots in which to park, revenue that wouldn't go into Young's pockets.
I respect Bob Young a great deal, and am a huge Ti Cat fan. Used to be a season's ticket holder, actually. And I feel he's simply receiving bad advice. His consultant firm, Osmingtion Inc., is the same firm hired by Redcliffe Realty Management who re-did our Centre Mall into a big box centre that literally turns its back onto the street: Google Streetview
I understand naming rights, but can't grasp the concept that somehow those driving past in cars count, however the thousands of people who walk, cycle, skate, drive by the West Harbour currently don't count? Is it because they're not from the U.S.? What about the Amtrak trains that pass daily? As well as VIA? And GO?
In reality, it has to do with parking & concessions. In an East Mountain location, he would have a monopoly on parking. At the West Harbour, there are dozens of Public & Private lots in which to park, revenue that wouldn't go into Young's pockets.
I respect Bob Young a great deal, and am a huge Ti Cat fan. Used to be a season's ticket holder, actually. And I feel he's simply receiving bad advice. His consultant firm, Osmingtion Inc., is the same firm hired by Redcliffe Realty Management who re-did our Centre Mall into a big box centre that literally turns its back onto the street: Google Streetview
TOareaFan
Superstar
Firstly, I don't like arguments/debates when one side or the other throws in misinformation intentionally to sway opinion their way. So I would ask that you not include references to electric GO trains because, we don't have them....it is under review/discussion but there is no hope of GO electrifying by 2015.
Secondly, the West Harbour may just be the best place to locate a Pan Am games stadium (for the reasons you mentioned) while still being a bad place for a Hamilton CFL team to have to play and for its owner to invest. I think we sometimes lose site of what people are saying. I think all that Bob Young said was that the ticats would not move to West Harbour because he would not invest the necessary money in that site to bring the stadium up to the 25 - 30k he needs for a CFL stadium.
I guess the city/province/Pan Am people could call his bluff and just go ahead with the 15k stadium at the harbour site....I am guessing, however, that the fact they have not done so suggests that they believe he is not bluffing and that it actually might not be the best place for CFL and naming rights, etc and that they know if they built a 15k stadium without his agreement they may very well be left without a tenant or an investor willing to expand the stadium beyond the Pan Am games size.....then you have a legacy of a never used 15k stadium to build your urban regeneration around....that is just my guess...because if they thought he was just bluffing they might as well go ahead and build it where they want it and assume he will come on board.
No one said anyone does not count nor did anyone say only american eyes count. All it means is that in our culture more people drive on highways than other modes of transportation and highway visibility has more value to advertisers than non-highway.
Clearly parking and concessions matter....although I am pretty sure the concession deal he is able to strike with the city/province in exchange for his investment would be the same no matter the location.
M
MigMug
Guest
GO Transit does not run electric trains. They are all diesel. GO is planning on converting to electric trains but that wont happen for at least a decade.
DC83
Senior Member
Jan 14, 2010: "We will make it work, whatever the site," Bob Young Source: The Spec
If he wasn't intrested in investing money in the West Habour, perhaps he should have made light of that fact much sooner than the eleventh hour.
Even if it takes McGuinty 10 years to get the electrified Lakeshore West GO line running, it'll be a lot sooner than an East Mountain location receiving any GO Rail or Light Rail to it's site. Best it could hope for is express busses sharing the same expressways as the other 6000-7000 cars (based on Young's parking hopes) cram onto the same access ramps and lanes.
The LINC, and especially the new RHVP, already experience congestion on regular basis. If fans driving to an East Mtn stadium think they're going to encounter a convenient driving/parking experience, they'll be in for a surprise once they realize the very highways they praise cannot handle the large influx of vehicles.
The RHVP, connecting the QEW to the proposed EM site, has already been shut down 4 times this year alone due to flooding. Twice last year (it's first year of being open). Ti Cat fans driving in better hope it doesn't rain on game days or they'll have to drive down those same, scary Hamilton roads they lobbied so hard to avoid.
Like plenty of suburban stadiums across North America, an East Mountain Pan Am stadium would make Bob Young millions in public dollars, while attracting good crowds for a couple years. Once the novelty of a new stadium wears, and fans start to realize the driving/parking situation is not nearly as convenient as promised (combined with what can only be assumed as yet another several dissapointing seasons under Young's ownership), the Ti-Cats will suffer, Young will abandon the team, and the football club will once again be in trouble.
If you agree with me, please help support our cause to make Hamilton just as vibrant, exciting and attractive as Toronto! We love Toronto, and look to It for inspiration on urban issues. I even chose to move here!
www.ourcityourfuture.ca for West Harbour support!!
DC83
Senior Member
What did you guys think of this slideshow? Some of you may have noticed the photos are by the one-and-only Flar. Compiled by a local artist, and owner of the HIStory+HERitage photo gallery on James St North, Graham Crawford. Great Work, Guys!!!
kettal
Banned
Read this article for a good summary and timeline
http://raisethehammer.org/article/1124/'we_will_make_it_work_whatever_the_site'
http://raisethehammer.org/article/1124/'we_will_make_it_work_whatever_the_site'
EnviroTO
Senior Member
One argument that seems completely illogical to me is the idea that if the city doesn't find a major tenant for the stadium they will build it somewhere else. That isn't going to happen. It the city decides the West Harbour site is the best location and doesn't have a tenant are you telling me the province will build it in Brampton? Burlington? Why? Are the Ti-cats going to become the Burlington Ti-Cats? I doubt it. The province would seriously harm its relation with the city if it decided not to listen to the elected city council and instead pandered to the Ti-Cats. Hamilton City Council should call the Ti-Cats bluff and go with West Harbour.
DC83
Senior Member
Contact Lists
Thanks for the support, EnviroTO! In Hamilton, we need all we can get!
Here's a quick Copy & Paste version of some important contacts if you wish to email your opinions. You don't need an essay, simply a note stating 'Please Support the West Harbour' and/or 'Please Reject the East Mountain'.
Hamilton City Council & Mayor Fred
mayorfred@hamilton.ca, bmchattie@hamilton.ca, bbratina@hamilton.ca, bmorelli@hamilton.ca, smerulla@hamilton.ca, ccollins@hamilton.ca, tjackson@hamilton.ca, sduvall@hamilton.ca, twhitehead@hamilton.ca, bclark@hamilton.ca, mpearson@hamilton.ca, dmitchell@hamilton.ca, lferguson@hamilton.ca, rpowers@hamilton.ca, rpasuta@hamilton.ca, mmccarthy@hamilton.ca
Hamilton MPPs: (including Dalton McGuinty and NDP leader Andrea Horwath)
saggelonitis.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org, dmcguinty.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org, pmiller-qp@ndp.on.ca, tmcmeekin.mpp@liberal.ola.org, ahorwath-co@ndp.on.ca
Thanks for the support, EnviroTO! In Hamilton, we need all we can get!
Here's a quick Copy & Paste version of some important contacts if you wish to email your opinions. You don't need an essay, simply a note stating 'Please Support the West Harbour' and/or 'Please Reject the East Mountain'.
Hamilton City Council & Mayor Fred
mayorfred@hamilton.ca, bmchattie@hamilton.ca, bbratina@hamilton.ca, bmorelli@hamilton.ca, smerulla@hamilton.ca, ccollins@hamilton.ca, tjackson@hamilton.ca, sduvall@hamilton.ca, twhitehead@hamilton.ca, bclark@hamilton.ca, mpearson@hamilton.ca, dmitchell@hamilton.ca, lferguson@hamilton.ca, rpowers@hamilton.ca, rpasuta@hamilton.ca, mmccarthy@hamilton.ca
Hamilton MPPs: (including Dalton McGuinty and NDP leader Andrea Horwath)
saggelonitis.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org, dmcguinty.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org, pmiller-qp@ndp.on.ca, tmcmeekin.mpp@liberal.ola.org, ahorwath-co@ndp.on.ca