GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[Coolstar]

I feel like Burlington and Oakville should be in the same zone. They're both fairly small with similar demographics and built form (I think).

It would also be nice if this included southern Simcoe County (are we getting the short end of the stick?) and if it was clear where "Inner Toronto" meets "Outer Toronto".

The report only focused on the GTHA as well as the Innovation Corridor out to Kitchener. But the idea can be extended to other areas like Simcoe or Niagara. Also, keep in mind the map from the report isn't the only map they released. The Toronto Region Board of Trade also released an interactive map and it's quite clear where the zone boundaries are located. This is where "Inner Toronto" meets "Outer Toronto".

Interactive Map: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/4cff253fbab44ca19005d8a1ebe0013a

The Northern Boundary is at Eglinton Ave. Since Line 5 runs on Eglinton, the line would be located in Zone B so that passengers from other zones won't have to pay another fare for Zone A in order to transfer to Line 5. The Eastern boundary borders Scarborough and the Western boundary borders Etobicoke. Zone A is mostly contained within the Old City of Toronto as well as most of York, East York, and a small part of North York.

 

[afransen]

One weird dynamic is that it is more expensive to go from Mississauga to downtown than all the way to STC, NYCC, etc.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One weird dynamic is that it is more expensive to go from Mississauga to downtown than all the way to STC, NYCC, etc.

That maybe, but the amount of people doing that (particularly east of NYCC) on surface transit is minuscule relative to going from Mississauga to downtown.

AoD

 

[ARG1]

One weird dynamic is that it is more expensive to go from Mississauga to downtown than all the way to STC, NYCC, etc.

I think that's kind of the point. Downtown is the primary destination for most people and part of the idea is to follow the London model of "if you avoid Downtown you get a discount" which I'm not really sure how I feel about it.

 

[Adjei]

Turns out there's a thread for this. Moving this from the Presto Fare Card thread.

Transportation

https://www.bot.com/Portals/0/Transit_Integration.pdf

Erasing the Invisible Line

Integrating the Toronto Region's Transit Networks

storymaps.arcgis.com

View attachment 285159

Steve Munro's take on this:

The Siren Song of Regional Fare Integration

The Toronto Region Board of Trade recently published a discussion paper on the subject of regional transit integration focused on fare structure and the barriers it creates to regional travel. See:…

stevemunro.ca

 

[gweed123]

One of the downsides with bigger zones is that the price jump from one zone to the next gets larger. If the jump is too big, people will drive the extra distance to start their trip inside the closer zone.

For example, just look at Waterdown. Under this proposal, it's in the Hamilton zone, but the closest GO station (Aldershot) is in the Burlington zone, yet the local transit trip is only a few km. In this location, that fare structure is going to push even more people into their cars than now.

The same thing will likely happen in Durham where the West Durham and East Durham zones meet. Whatever the easternmost station is in the West Durham zone (Ajax?) is going to get slammed.

 

[ARG1]

One of the downsides with bigger zones is that the price jump from one zone to the next gets larger. If the jump is too big, people will drive the extra distance to start their trip inside the closer zone.

For example, just look at Waterdown. Under this proposal, it's in the Hamilton zone, but the closest GO station (Aldershot) is in the Burlington zone, yet the local transit trip is only a few km. In this location, that fare structure is going to push even more people into their cars than now.

The same thing will likely happen in Durham where the West Durham and East Durham zones meet. Whatever the easternmost station is in the West Durham zone (Ajax?) is going to get slammed.

I've said this before, and I guess I'll have to repeat myself. Look at the fare prices shown below the map. Note that the base fare is shown for 2 zones rather than one. Under this plan it'll cost you the same to travel 2 zones as it will to travel 1 zone. In this case, travelling from Waterdown to Aldershot will still cost you $3.25, with no additional cost. It is only once you cross a 2nd boundary (so travelling from Waterdown to Oakville) where the fares begin piling on.

 

[gweed123]

I've said this before, and I guess I'll have to repeat myself. Look at the fare prices shown below the map. Note that the base fare is shown for 2 zones rather than one. Under this plan it'll cost you the same to travel 2 zones as it will to travel 1 zone. In this case, travelling from Waterdown to Aldershot will still cost you $3.25, with no additional cost. It is only once you cross a 2nd boundary (so travelling from Waterdown to Oakville) where the fares begin piling on.

Yeah I saw that on the bottom after I posted, my bad. That model makes more sense then.

 

[afransen]

If it confuses transit nerds, maybe it is not being communicated well for the broader population.

 

[ARG1]

If it confuses transit nerds, maybe it is not being communicated well for the broader population.

Its not confusing as much as it is a case of people see fare zones, and assume a specific implementation without reading the fine print, which is something that will cause issues to transit nerds who are far more familiar with these systems than the general public. The only part of the GTHA that in practice has a fare zone system is YRT, and even then I feel like most people who use YRT aren't aware of it, or know how it works, since the majority of the population live in one zone (Yes I know GO Transit's distance based fares are actually programmed as zone based fares but in the end it basically functions as a distance based fare system).

 

[gweed123]

Its not confusing as much as it is a case of people see fare zones, and assume a specific implementation without reading the fine print, which is something that will cause issues to transit nerds who are far more familiar with these systems than the general public. The only part of the GTHA that in practice has a fare zone system is YRT, and even then I feel like most people who use YRT aren't aware of it, or know how it works, since the majority of the population live in one zone (Yes I know GO Transit's distance based fares are actually programmed as zone based fares but in the end it basically functions as a distance based fare system).

I suppose that is one plus for this system too: For the majority of municipal transit riders (i.e. not GO), your fare won't change. This model would really only affect those who do cross-border or inter-agency trips.

I think the biggest educational point for the average transit user would be explaining how people who used to be TTC-only can now incorporate GO into their commuting pattern, because they won't be charged a punitive double fare.

One question I do have though is how this will affect a municipality's ability to change their fare prices. Right now the fares for most agencies are set by Council (be it municipal or regional). That's a detail that would definitely need to get ironed out.

 

[afransen]

Could be solved by uploading transit funding to the province or Metrolinx.

 

[gweed123]

Could be solved by uploading transit funding to the province or Metrolinx.

Given the news yesterday that Metrolinx's subsidy will need to be increased significantly, and given who is in power at the Provincial level, I doubt very much that that option is on the table right now.

But yes, that would be nice. I think municipalities will still want to have a say in their transit service though, as municipal politicians enjoy getting involved in the details, particularly service within their ward.

What I think would work best would be a hybrid model, whereby Metrolinx establishes a base set of service standards for each route type (minimum frequencies, minimum span, etc). That base level of service would be paid for by Metrolinx/the Province. Anything beyond that minimum (additional buses during some times of the day, additional late night buses, etc) would be covered by the municipality. In essence, every municipality would get their base model paid for, but any upgrades would be on their dime. Another option would be just to give a per citizen or per rider subsidy, and let the municipal transit agency decide how to spend that money.

 

[reteequa]

Is this method the plan set in stone or is it just an idea?

 

[ARG1]

Given the news yesterday that Metrolinx's subsidy will need to be increased significantly, and given who is in power at the Provincial level, I doubt very much that that option is on the table right now.

But yes, that would be nice. I think municipalities will still want to have a say in their transit service though, as municipal politicians enjoy getting involved in the details, particularly service within their ward.

What I think would work best would be a hybrid model, whereby Metrolinx establishes a base set of service standards for each route type (minimum frequencies, minimum span, etc). That base level of service would be paid for by Metrolinx/the Province. Anything beyond that minimum (additional buses during some times of the day, additional late night buses, etc) would be covered by the municipality. In essence, every municipality would get their base model paid for, but any upgrades would be on their dime. Another option would be just to give a per citizen or per rider subsidy, and let the municipal transit agency decide how to spend that money.

Considering Doug Ford pushed hard on uploading the TTC to the province early on in his premiership, I'd say that he himself probably has a keen interest in taking control of local transit authorities, especially the TTC.