GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[TheTigerMaster]

Something that I apparently missed is that the TTC is already paying tens of millions of dollars annually to subsidize 905 riders.

So the City of Toronto currently pays $50 Million annually to subsidize cross border travel. Fare integration would add up to $40 Million to that, for $90 Million in total. That's equivalent to 20% of TTCs operating subsidy. That's quite.

Fare integration should be supported but the province needs to cover the costs. This is getting quite pricey.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

So the City of Toronto currently pays $50 Million annually to subsidize cross border travel. Fare integration would add up to $40 Million to that, for $90 Million in total. That's equivalent to 20% of TTCs operating subsidy. That's quite.

Fare integration should be supported but the province needs to cover the costs. This is getting quite pricey.

It may be true that TTC is "subsidizing" those riders but it's not clear that the CITY is.
As was just pointed out, people who work in Toronto contribute to the economy in many other ways. Heck, is TTC calculating how many 905ers pay to park at Finch and Downsview? That's a pure net gain of $. (i.e. it costs the TTC less for someone from the 905 to park at Finch and take the subway than to take the bus to the subway and take it downtown.)

If all those people who live outside 416 but take transit stopped working in Toronto, the city's economy would not be better off.

If all the math is that "Toronto is losing money by paying [20% of] the fares for 905ers traveling within 416," I don't think it's very good math. And that's still without getting into how travel patterns will change and shift once RER and/or "SmartTrack" is on line. It's an entirely new paradigm but TTC keeps using old-school calculations.

I think any fare integration needs to have pooled funding of some sort to even out the subsidies and not "penalize" Toronto - that should be a given - but I'm still going to take these subsidy numbers with a big grain of salt, given the source. I don't buy for a moment that 905ers who take TTC to work everyday, or the baseball game or whatever, are draining the city of a net nearly-$100m a year.

Our challenge, as a region, is to help these people get to/from where they want/need to go as seamlessly and efficiently as possible (that means in terms of time, routing, cost etc.). That requires balancing the needs of the region's biggest transit system, but if you're not starting with the needs of the system's riders, you're not solving the problem.

 

[Northern Light]

It would cost $40 Million to eliminate fare boundary at Steeles. That's about 10% of TTC's subsidy from the City, or equivalent to a 1% property tax increases.

Metrolinx CEO seems to think this is a small amount of money.

Was he literally referring to the TTC/YRT boundary only? Or using it as a metaphor for eliminating all 416/905 boundary fares? I rather suspect the former. In which case the global cost will be
significantly greater than 40M on day one.

The other thing to keep in mind, however, is what a change in fare structure does to routing, and how that then impacts ridership.

If you eliminate the boundary, you're bound to see route rationalization in some cases or even new duplication in others, where that currently doesn't make sense due to fare duplication issues or local monopolies of service.

That may save some operational money, but to the extent that it grows ridership, but not enough to make it un-subsidized (a given), that has the potential to further grow the cost.

Not saying I oppose that.

Do think we need the full set, of credible numbers to pass judgement.

 

[Palma]

If all those people who live outside 416 but take transit stopped working in Toronto, the city's economy would not be better off.

.

Cause there are not unemployed people in Toronto to take those jobs? Perhaps then unemployment in Toronto would decrease

 

[ksun]

Cause there are not unemployed people in Toronto to take those jobs? Perhaps then unemployment in Toronto would decrease

plus the entire logic is false.
Encouraging people to come to Toronto doesn't mean the transit should be free or subsidized heavily by Toronto. Should we offer cheap flights/trains to Toronto subsidized by us as well, since those people help Toronto's economy too?

And honestly, those people come to Toronto not because they love to come, but because they have to come (for work, fun etc.). It is not like there is tons to do in Vaughan. I simply don't understand why people have problem with riders pay their equal fair share of transit costs. Why is it even a debate?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Cause there are not unemployed people in Toronto to take those jobs? Perhaps then unemployment in Toronto would decrease

"I'll take people who definitely do not work in economic development for $100, Alex!"
You actually made me LOL, dude. Few here do.

Encouraging people to come to Toronto doesn't mean the transit should be free or subsidized heavily by Toronto. Should we offer cheap flights/trains to Toronto subsidized by us as well, since those people help Toronto's economy too?

The logic of your statement is lacking. You're obviously unaware people work in Vaughan (and Brampton and even Mississauga!) and - this will really blow your mind - some of them LIVE IN TORONTO. As for there not being stuff to do, why, since 2000 Vaughan has had restaurants and movie theatres and everything! Libraries, even!

No one is suggesting people don't pay their "fare share." But how you calculate that isn't simple. And treating commuters like second class citizens because of where they live is no way to run a region. As far as you not understanding how various industries (oh, lets's just say MOVIES, to pull one out of the blue sky) are subsidized to help Toronto's economy...I'll just leave that there.

 

[nfitz]

How much will timed based transfers cost the City to implement?

TTC staff estimated $20 million in the August 2014 report, if they used a 2-hour transfer.

 

[Young Stats]

Will it be better if the TTC merge with other neighbouring GTHA transit agencies (including GO transit) rather than Metrolinx trying to integrate fares within the GTHA?

 

[ksun]

"

And treating commuters like second class citizens because of where they live is no way to run a region. As far as you not understanding how various industries (oh, lets's just say MOVIES, to pull one out of the blue sky) are subsidized to help Toronto's economy...I'll just leave that there.

No one is suggesting treating no one as second class citizen. I am suggesting riders who travel longer distance should pay a bit more to cover the additional operating cost, is that logically lacking? If I travel from downtown TO to Vaughan I am glad to pay more than traveling to Eglinton ave.
Plus, it is true people in Vaughan don't pay Toronto property tax and there is that.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

No one is suggesting treating no one as second class citizen. I am suggesting riders who travel longer distance should pay a bit more to cover the additional operating cost, is that logically lacking? If I travel from downtown TO to Vaughan I am glad to pay more than traveling to Eglinton ave.

No, that makes total sense. I'd pay more too - just not double.

The question is whether someone who travels from Yonge/7 to Yonge/Sheppard should be paying 2X what a person pays to travel from Yonge/Finch to Union. Some variation on fare-by-distance is eminently fair, as is a surcharge for transferring between systems. It's the current system - both how it's funded piecemeal by local munis and how it operates inefficiently for riders near borders - that's the problem.

 

[Euphoria]

This has always been a problem for commuters who have to take GO to reach the TTC. They pay an enormous fee for distance-based GO then pay a full TTC fare. A GO rider making a one-way trip from Port Credit to Yonge and Bloor has to pay a $6.75 GO fare plus a $3.25 TTC fare, $10.00 for a one-way trip. The Scarborough resident who lives roughly the same distance from Yonge and Bloor can make the entire trip on the TTC for $3.25.

No doubt some on here will say, sucks to be you living in Mississauga, but it isn't equitable if we're trying to address transit in a fair way across the region. Basically the zone or distance-based system should only kick in when you cross into other cities or use GO, but I propose that there's at least a discount when switching systems. Not fair, for example, that someone living just east of Scarborough, in West Pickering, should pay full fare on two transit systems just to go to Kennedy Station when the person living at Port Union and Lawrence in Scarborough can travel to Kipling Station for one fare.

There needs to be a discount for multiple system users. Mississauga and Brampton's systems accept transfers between systems without requiring additional fares. Metrolinx should try to at least standardize discounts across the GTA. Something like this exists transferring between GO and local transit outside Toronto using a Presto card, but it stops at the Toronto border. I'm sure there are Torontonians who would appreciate a discount on TTC when they transfer from GO.

 

[salsa]

TTC Riders decided to embarrass us again with their shit.

 

[nfitz]

I think they are wrong - but I don't see how it was particularly embarrassing. Most ignored it, and it couldn't have delayed the start more than a minute or two. Seemed to be a lot shorter than the average deputation by the same one or two regulars that everyone ignores.

Seemed quite respectful to me really.

I don't think a handful of people chanting for a minute or two before the meeting starts is a "gigantic protest".

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I don't think a handful of people chanting for a minute or two before the meeting starts is a "gigantic protest".

I hope you're not questioning Steve Munro's numbers!!

Everyone's got a bee in their bonnets about this stuff. If you're just picking one person (or small group) their concept of what a "fair fare" is almost certainly UNfair to someone else. the current system is (obviously) very unfair to anyone who uses more than one system and the TTC's flat fare, which Munro et al revere as sacred, is unfair to people too. I won't even touch the dumb Metropass pricing.

But as I've said before, we have to stop acting like we're reinventing the wheel here. London has zones, New York City has different fares for bus and subway etc. etc. etc. We've spent decades treading water, not noticing that there's a current in the water, pulling us along, further downriver the whole time.
We just need to get on with it.

 

[Adjei]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...etrolinx-wrestles-with-what-fare-is-fair.html