GTHA Regional Transit Amalgamation Discussion: Superlinx/Subway Upload

[lead82]

This is an accounting distraction more than anything else. The province pretty much funded most of the other lines in Toronto. It basically already owns the City of Toronto, so why does it need to be a direct owner? The main reason is that they can extend the lines further out (more pork barreling) and sell air rights quick and cheap.

All this nonsense about red-tape and improving commutes is non-sense. The province can write the city a big fat cheque for the RL and Sheppard line and work can proceed to RFP and then construction.

 

[44 North]

The same reason they uploaded the former Transit City Line 5 and Line 6, and are paying 100% of construction costs.

The reasons are outlined in the document:

• • Expedited implementation of a greater number of priority regional transit projects, made possible by the Province’s ability to accelerate procurement, permitting and approvals, and to effectively undertake capital construction;
  • An enhanced ability to plan a more efficient regional transit network across the GTHA, with improved connectivity achieved, for example, through fare and service integration; and,
  • A greater fiscal flexibility to invest in and deliver additional transit projects, and to address essential deferred maintenance needs, which would be effected through amortized provincial capital expenditures on owned assets”

Bah, those reasons are mostly bunk as some have become disillusioned into accepting. "Expedited implementation of a greater number of projects"? FWLRT, after being cut short of its key central section, has been fully funded for 10yrs and hasn't started yet. Fully funded. St Clair, a City project that as many know faced notoriously long delays, was built in less than half the time. How long does it take for Prov projects that aren't fully funded like Hurontario? 15-20yrs just for a median LRT doesn't seem good at all.

Then Crosstown. Yes it's great, and started early. But they immediately lopped 1/3 for an indefinite later date, or 1/2 if you include ScarbMalvLRT. And backdoor switcherooed on the planning of the line at its outset. Seven lines in ten years down to one. I really don't see much in the way of an "enhanced ability to plan" or "greater fiscal flexibility". Seems more like a drawn out shell game.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This is an accounting distraction more than anything else. The province pretty much funded most of the other lines in Toronto. It basically already owns the City of Toronto, so why does it need to be a direct owner? The main reason is that they can extend the lines further out (more pork barreling) and sell air rights quick and cheap.

That's a weird read. I could say the exact opposite and it would make at least much sense. "The province already provides capital funding for every Toronto project (and used to provide some operating subsidy, way back when, and arguably should again). Any time Toronto wants to build something new - the DRL, the SSE, whatever - they have to ask the province for money, go through the provincial EA process, run it through Metrolinx etc. So why shouldn't the province be the direct owner?"

It's basically (fair or not) like a little kid who lives off allowance from his parents complaining when the parents say, "As long as you're under our roof, you have to follow our rules." If there are valuable air rights to be had and TTC hasn't monetized them, I'll judge later whether the PCs are ripping off Toronto or simply doing something Toronto has failed to do with its own assets, while keeping property taxes below the rate of inflation.

In the meantime, it strikes me as logical - all other things being equal - that the party with the deepest pockets and most influence, and who are already the gatekeepers for the system anyway, take responsibility for it. so long as it's done correctly and is a two-way street. The alternative is what we've had which, based on the past 10 years amounts to Toronto setting political priorities, reversing them, reversing them again, modifying them - and all the while waiting on provincial funding either way. Gotta be something better.

 

[Leo_Chan]

That's a weird read. I could say the exact opposite and it would make at least much sense. "The province already provides capital funding for every Toronto project (and used to provide some operating subsidy, way back when, and arguably should again). Any time Toronto wants to build something new - the DRL, the SSE, whatever - they have to ask the province for money, go through the provincial EA process, run it through Metrolinx etc. So why shouldn't the province be the direct owner?"

It's basically (fair or not) like a little kid who lives off allowance from his parents complaining when the parents say, "As long as you're under our roof, you have to follow our rules." If there are valuable air rights to be had and TTC hasn't monetized them, I'll judge later whether the PCs are ripping off Toronto or simply doing something Toronto has failed to do with its own assets, while keeping property taxes below the rate of inflation.

In the meantime, it strikes me as logical - all other things being equal - that the party with the deepest pockets and most influence, and who are already the gatekeepers for the system anyway, take responsibility for it. so long as it's done correctly and is a two-way street. The alternative is what we've had which, based on the past 10 years amounts to Toronto setting political priorities, reversing them, reversing them again, modifying them - and all the while waiting on provincial funding either way. Gotta be something better.

I think the Province should make the plan, the City can approve of the plan, and the Province has final approval of the plan. If the City disproves, then the Province can still veto and approve it (within reason).

Something I want to suggest is instead of creating a super master plan for the entire region, each city or region should create their own transit plan, ahead for a few decades, where then Metrolinx incorporates the plan into the entire region’s plan. The when it comes time for funding and building projects, each city/region can pick their project. The projects’ cost can range for a few 10’s of millions to a few billion. Therefore, projects can be lined up on the city/region level and the Province can order each region’s funding, regardless of the cost prioritization.

IMO, Toronto is 4 cities/regions and should each have their own priorities.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Bah, those reasons are mostly bunk as some have become disillusioned into accepting. "Expedited implementation of a greater number of projects"? FWLRT, after being cut short of its key central section, has been fully funded for 10yrs and hasn't started yet. Fully funded. St Clair, a City project that as many know faced notoriously long delays, was built in less than half the time. How long does it take for Prov projects that aren't fully funded like Hurontario? 15-20yrs just for a median LRT doesn't seem good at all.

Then Crosstown. Yes it's great, and started early. But they immediately lopped 1/3 for an indefinite later date, or 1/2 if you include ScarbMalvLRT. And backdoor switcherooed on the planning of the line at its outset. Seven lines in ten years down to one. I really don't see much in the way of an "enhanced ability to plan" or "greater fiscal flexibility". Seems more like a drawn out shell game.

Let's remember that the SELRT, FWLRT, and ECLRT was uploaded to the Province for "efficiencies" and whatnot. What was the result of this:

SELRT: Delayed, delayed again, delayed again, canceled.

FWLRT: Delayed, delayed again, delayed again, delayed again... (ML really struggled to find someone to build a damn tram line)

ECLRT: Delayed, delayed again, overbudget.

Nevermind the gross mismanagement of the ECLRT. Everything from the vehicle orders, to them paying Crosslinx an additional $200 Million, without even understanding if Crosslinx's claim for more funding was even valid (read the auditor general report).

Yea, this is some great display of fiscal responsibility and project management from QP.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Let's remember that the SELRT, FWLRT, and ECLRT was uploaded to the Province for "efficiencies" and whatnot. What was the result of this:

SELRT: Delayed, delayed again, delayed again, canceled.

FWLRT: Delayed, delayed again, delayed again, delayed agin...

ECLRT: Delayed, delayed again, overbudget.

Yea, this is some great display of fiscal responsibility and project management from QP.

FWLRT is being built at this point, although it HAS been delayed MANY times. You're also missing the cheapest Transit City line, the WWLRT, that would have shared TTC guage and required limited new track, but sadly, the plug was pulled on that one, although they might end building a reincaration of that one...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Fully funded. St Clair, a City project that as many know faced notoriously long delays, was built in less than half the time.

To put this shit in perspective...

Finch West LRT was supposed to start construction in 2015. Due to Metrolinx-imposed delays, it's now starting in Fall 2019, more than four years later.

The entire 512 St Clair right-of-way, which is of similar scale and complexity, was completed in less time than it took Metrolinx to even find a company to build the FWLRT.

It took the TTC just a year to design and start construction of the 512 St Clair. How many years did ML take to design FWLRT? Four? Five?

And FWLRT isn’t even Metrolinx’s/QP’s worst managed project in Toronto. Where the hell is the supposedly funded and approved SELRT?

And QP means to tell me that uploading the subway to Metrolinx is supposed to magically expedite project progress? Is something fundamentally changing at Metrolinx, because they certainly don’t have a record of excellence.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

To put this shit in perspective...

Finch West LRT was supposed to start construction in 2015. Due to Metrolinx-imposed delays, it's now starting in Fall 2019, more than four years later.

The entire 512 St Clair right-of-way, which is of similar scale and complexity, was completed in less time than it took Metrolinx to even find a company to build the FWLRT.

It took the TTC just a year to design and start construction of the 512 St Clair. How many years did ML take to design FWLRT? Four? Five?

And QP means to tell me that uploading the subway to Metrolinx is supposed to magically expedite project progress?

Even though the St Clair ROW had delays with it as well. That is crazy...

 

[robmausser]

Let's remember that the SELRT, FWLRT, and ECLRT was uploaded to the Province for "efficiencies" and whatnot. What was the result of this:

SELRT: Delayed, delayed again, delayed again, canceled.

FWLRT: Delayed, delayed again, delayed again, delayed again... (ML really struggled to find someone to build a damn tram line)

ECLRT: Delayed, delayed again, overbudget.

Nevermind the gross mismanagement of the ECLRT. Everything from the vehicle orders, to them paying Crosslinx an additional $200 Million, without even understanding if Crosslinx's claim for more funding was even valid (read the auditor general report).

Yea, this is some great display of fiscal responsibility and project management from QP.

Well, to be honest, the TTC isnt much better.

The Spadina extension was delayed by almost 2 years and way over budget.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Cherry-picking projects doesn't prove anything.
Toronto has messed up plenty on their own and Metrolinx's record isn't spotless.
I mean, listing a bunch of Metrolinx delays without playing the "This part of Transit City would now be operational if not for Toronto council decisions..." game is silly.

All I know is that Toronto, as a Constitutional fact, doesn't have the financial resources for capital expansion. They will always be in throe to the province and it is - on the face of it - not crazy to say, "If the province is going to be forcing everyone onto Presto and paying the largest share of any new infrastructure etc., if makes sense they should be responsible for the good and bad." (Presto is actually a good example because some issues are back-end issues to be blamed on Metrolinx and others have to do with Toronto's implementation. Average Joe Commuter doesn't know who to blame.)

None of this excuses a potential land grab or dismisses the notion subway service has to remain closely integrated with buses etc. As I and others have said elsewhere, most major metros have some form or other of a regional transit authority. While Tfl and MTA and other organizations certainly also have their foibles, it's the logical move to make. Doing an upload of one element, after gutting city council and in the midst of a larger regional governance review doesn't exactly seem like it's getting us to where we need to get. It's barely even a start, really. And if anyone can make a mess of it, it's this government.

I think the Province should make the plan, the City can approve of the plan, and the Province has final approval of the plan. If the City disproves, then the Province can still veto and approve it (within reason).

Something I want to suggest is instead of creating a super master plan for the entire region, each city or region should create their own transit plan, ahead for a few decades, where then Metrolinx incorporates the plan into the entire region’s plan.

This is exactly what The Big Move was, of course. Transit City was Toronto's plan, integrated into the RTP. So was York Region's Viva, for example.
It really boils down to something quite simple: money and power.
If Metrolinx had a board with democratically elected regional representatives and had dedicated funding and wasn't subject to the whims of cabinet, it could prioritize and build the projects the local governments suggested. It could have ignored Toronto's Transit City reversals, for example. It could establish a sequence when it comes to the DRL and YNSE that everyone would have no choice but to agree with, instead of having everyone gnashing their teeth, wondering whether politics will decide which comes first; which, of course it will.

As long as the politicians keep messing with things - whether it's Tory ramming through SmartTrack or the Fords tossing out Transit City or the province agreeing to the Scarborough subway - I'm not sure it really matters which toothless, untrustworthy organization is in charge.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well, to be honest, the TTC isnt much better.

The Spadina extension was delayed by almost 2 years and way over budget.

I’ll be the first to admit that the TTC’s management of TYSSE and 512 ROW was less than stellar. But I’m not here arguing that the TTC is perfect. I’m here arguing against the idea that Metrolinx will magically deliver projects faster, and with fewer cost overruns, despite their poor record to date. This idea comes across as wishful thinking, because to date, nothing Metrolinx has done indicates that.


Regarding TYSSE and FWLRT specifically, both projects are late. TYSSE by 2 years and FWLRT by 5 years (the latter without any significant work yet taken). The FWLRT is a far lower risk project than TYSSE, so you’d expect any delays to be far ssmaller in magnitude, yet here we are with a delay 2.5x longer than TYSSE’s delay, even though FWLRT has yet to begin major construction. If Metrolinx can’t deliver a simple tram line without 5 years of delay, what in the world suggests they can handle something as complex as TYSSE?

 

[steveintoronto]

As I and others have said elsewhere, most major metros have some form or other of a regional transit authority. While Tfl and MTA and other organizations certainly also have their foibles, it's the logical move to make.

The question isn't so much if or not, but 'how encompassing'? And where does the effective catchment area end?

It really boils down to something quite simple: money and power.

As long as the politicians keep messing with things - whether it's Tory ramming through SmartTrack or the Fords tossing out Transit City or the province agreeing to the Scarborough subway - I'm not sure it really matters which toothless, untrustworthy organization is in charge.

Which leads me to the sorry but inevitable conclusion that since this provincial regime has no intention of *funding* transit infrastructure, it is left to the private sector. And if so, then cut-out the middle-man: The Province! They're not going to do anything productive, quite the opposite. Ford has an exemplary record of screwing things up. He's good at it.

So allow a consortium to approach the federal government for a Section 92 status to build a commuter railway that the Province would have no more power over than they do VIA Rail.

[...]
Courts have held that"works" have to be interpreted to mean something tangible, a "thing" or an "integrated activity" that would be presumably man-made since the clause contains the words "before and after their execution." The courts have further held that the declaration has to be made by statutory enactment and that such transfers of jurisdiction as are effected under s. 92 (10c) are not necessarily permanent and that Parliament might repeal or modify any declaration.

Among others, local railways, grain elevators, Bell telephone, flour mills, feed mills, feed warehouses, seed cleaning mills, uranium exploration, atomic production, research and refining establishments have all been declared to be "to the advantage of Canada" and transferred under federal jurisdiction.[...]

http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/federal/declare.htm

My mention of "VIA Rail" was no mistake. VIA have availed themselves to being commuter operations, most recently with Halifax, but an even bolder example exists: VIA HFR! To be a P3 project. Privately funded RoW, federally funded rolling stock.

I see exquisite symbiosis of consortiums building rail systems for commuter as well as trans-provincial. And the provinces are free to become members. Quebec has already committed to doing so in so many words. VIA's HFR could be built by a consortium that would/could either directly build the needed Relief Line, possibly combining the two for a north-south entrance into Toronto (with a by-pass using the extant Don Valley route for the southernmost portion) and/or the consortium could reform into various entities with different partners for each project. No matter how you cut-it, it's better off going around the Province if they're only 'in it for the money'....which is exactly the criticism most often lobbed at Private Enterprise. Private Enterprise has built some amazingly good systems in the UK, Oz, and elsewhere, often with Cdn fund money.

Quebec understands this, writ REM. Ontario? Phhh...Ontario is still contemplating printing labels for belly buttons...

The Feds via the Infrastructure Bank have a golden opportunity to 'rescue' Toronto from the evil label maker and his adhesives.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The question isn't so much if or not, but 'how encompassing'? And where does the effective catchment area end?

My personal argument would be that the transit authority needs to include the entire commutershed. Give or take, that would be the entire GO region, at least. There's an argument to be made for perhaps cutting it off at Hamilton, not going to K/W etc. But this is a perfect example of the sort of thing where you look at best practices; there must be academic papers out there that compare various transit authorities and find what works. It's only here that we think we're immune to it but I think it's a safe bet that OUR structure (a whole bunch of fiefdoms, one of which dwarfs the others, operating independently while a regional agency [very] loosely ties them together and operates a separate, region-scale fiefdom, all under the sway of individual political authorities, all of which are financially reliant on the province) isn't on anyone's Best Practices list.

Which leads me to the sorry but inevitable conclusion, that since this provincial regime has no intention of *funding* transit infrastructure, it is left to the private sector. And if so, then cut-out the middle-man: The Province! They're not going to do anything productive, quite the opposite. Ford has an exemplary record of screwing things up. He's good at it.

He is good at it
I don't personally see that big a role for the private sector, for a bunch of reasons, but it's an argument.
I think successive fed governments have made it clear they have no intention of sticking their noses in and the infrastructure bank is probably as far as we'll get. If we had a single, regional transit authority (which would have to be created by the province but then cut loose, so it's not actually a branch of the provincial government), the federal money would flow through that.

I guess I'm in the unenviable position of supporting greater regional integration while having issues with the way this government is going about it. Just like Ford managed to spin LRT into a negative and poison that well in Toronto, I think the way Doug is uploading the subway will similarly poison the well for Torontonians inclined to be opposed to regional transit governance. C'est la vie...

 

[steveintoronto]

Just rushing out the door, will answer with reference, link and detail later, but short answer on this:

But this is a perfect example of the sort of thing where you look at best practices; there must be academic papers out there that compare various transit authorities and find what works.

There are many! And not just 'academic' but 'proof of concept', the latest being Crossrail, who actually have an office now publishing 'how the model works'.

It's good that the examples of projects running grossly past completion dates are discussed above, because that is a foible that Crossrail also ran into. But almost all projects do. And Crossrail also ran slightly overbudget. I add that because inevitably someone will retort "but Crossrail nya, nya, nya". The model stands not only to other UK ones, but internationally as a way to address conflicting government meddling, by making them *shareholders* of a limited company. There was also private investment in there too, but they had no representation on the board. That's a topic in itself, that some companies see such a benefit to their business they partake without a direct fiscal reward. That ain't gonna happen in Toronto! Canary Wharf financed their own station...it was in their interests to do so. And it's a magnificent showcase as well as being underwater and highly functional.

Oz also has a lot of academic studies and practical instances.

Must run, this forum string getting good, back later.

Crossrail started construction of the new station at Canary Wharf in May 2009. The station is expected to be completed in 2018.

Canary Wharf Group (CWG) is the lead contractor for the design and construction of the station. The estimated investment on the station project is £500m ($765m), out of which £150m ($230m) is contributed by CWG.

https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/canary-wharf-station-london/

 

[nfitz]

The entire 512 St Clair right-of-way, which is of similar scale and complexity

TTC reported that in 2010 that the entire budget for the 7-km long St. Clair line was about $100 million, of which $30 million were for the Toronto Hydro upgrades.

Meanwhile the 11-km long Finch West is about $1.2 billion in 2010 dollars.

How is that of similar scale and complexity.

They aren't even close to the same scale and complexity! A completely different magnitude!