GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[timio]

Not sure where you found a wye... But if you mean expansion of GO train parking close to King Street, I think that is unlikely. Land in the immediate vicinity is planned for high-density office and residential use, and should be quite expensive.

Metrolinx would encounter a lot of NIMBYism as the surrounding neighbourhood put up a stink over the noise when it found out the layover was going where it was, despite an active helipad used multiple times daily right beside the tracks. Some people...

Kitchener hopes to redevelop the area on the south side of the North Mainline into what they term as the "Innovation District"

 

[jamincan]

I know it is never going to happen, but the storage at Kitchener could be solved by having a train leaving Union early in the morning arriving in time to reverse direction and function as the last train into Union. This would address the calls for providing reverse-commuting service from Toronto to KW as well as allow them to increase the service from KW to Toronto. I don't know how that would work with scheduling on the line though.

 

[TFC]

On a somewhat related note, I believe the Kitchener storage tracks can accommodate two 12 car trains, whereas Georgetown can only accommodate 10 car trains. If anyone on here is involved with GO rail ops, could you consider juggling the schedule to extend the 08:01 train arriving at Union to Kitchener (with a 12 car trainset, provided there are enough cars available)? The existing Kitchener departure at 05:49 would be revised to start from Georgetown at 06:45. From an outsider's perspective, this would kill multiple birds with 1 stone: reducing the load factor on this already over-capacity trip; and reducing the overall travel time between Kitchener and Union. Does anyone with more knowledge know why this hasn't (or can't) be done?

 

[ShonTron]

On a somewhat related note, I believe the Kitchener storage tracks can accommodate two 12 car trains, whereas Georgetown can only accommodate 10 car trains. If anyone on here is involved with GO rail ops, could you consider juggling the schedule to extend the 08:01 train arriving at Union to Kitchener (with a 12 car trainset, provided there are enough cars available)? The existing Kitchener departure at 05:49 would be revised to start from Georgetown at 06:45. From an outsider's perspective, this would kill multiple birds with 1 stone: reducing the load factor on this already over-capacity trip; and reducing the overall travel time between Kitchener and Union. Does anyone with more knowledge know why this hasn't (or can't) be done?

I don't think I can answer your question, but the Georgetown station/yard is problematic for several reasons, one such reason is that it can handle only 10-car trains. Since the yard doubles as the station platform, it makes it more difficult to run 12-car trains through there if going to the Kitchener yard. (The southern most track looks as if it might handle a 12-car train though.) It is also inaccessible and there's no way to build a mini-platform as the inner tracks are filled in and used to load the last two outbound trains and unload the first two terminating trains. (Lincolnville is similar being a yard-station but tracks are wide enough apart for mini-platforms and doesn't have a tunnel to access.) I'd like to see one or two new yards (perhaps just on the far side of Trafalgar Road, or near Winston Churchill Blvd.) similar to how GO relocated Milton's yard.

The Georgetown yard is a left over from the Grand Trunk/CN days when Georgetown was a junction between the busy Brampton Subdivision and branch Milton Subdivision. With the construction of the CN new Toronto Yards, the Milton Sub was upgraded between Burlington Jct and Georgetown and combined with part of the Brampton Sub and new track to become the Halton Subdivision (the western Brampton Sub became the Guelph Sub, the southeastern section became the Weston Sub, the rest of the Milton sub was abandoned apart from a spur to Innisfil from Barrie). The Milton line used a largely inactive CP yard at CP Guelph Junction until it outgrew it (the number of trains and needing 12-car sets, plus reduced deadhead mileage).

GO doesn't (can't?) use the station platform VIA uses for the two through trains - is it possible to build a 12-car platform there?

 

[reaperexpress]

As for taking some of the very few additional trains being added in 2015 and making a bunch of express runs for KW folks, this will lead to a very uncomfortable political situation.....cause every express train means it will not serve folks further down the line and those are folks that have a) been waiting a long time for additional service and (in the case of many of them) have suffered through years of construction and aggravation with the only saving grace being "more service will come from it".....if they see that "more service" diluted by more trains that whiz through their communities without stopping...I can't think they will be all too pleased.

Introducing a bunch of new express trips to KW isn't the only way to get faster intercity service. I was suggesting making some new local trips around the same time, so that existing Kitchener runs can skip stops while maintaining or increasing the amount of service for each stop, but the quality of service goes up everywhere (faster trips). Here's what I'm talking about, though it is admittedly more ambitious than the 5 round trips we've been hearing about.

Trainsets are named based on the station they originate from. (K1 is the first set to leave Kitchener, etc.). I don't know why two of the trips currently start from Bramalea, and only 3 from Georgetown, given that the storage capacity is more than 3 at Georgetown and less than 2 at Bramalea. Also note that the line currently only has a single track, so trains cannot do multiple runs on the line. But this schedule is post-2015, so you'll notice that trainset B1 does 3 runs during the peak period, providing counter-peak service as a side-effect.

I know it is never going to happen, but the storage at Kitchener could be solved by having a train leaving Union early in the morning arriving in time to reverse direction and function as the last train into Union. This would address the calls for providing reverse-commuting service from Toronto to KW as well as allow them to increase the service from KW to Toronto. I don't know how that would work with scheduling on the line though.

In my schedule, that's more or less what I do. I have two trains running from Toronto to KW as well as the two trains doing the reverse around the same time. The constraint for these movements is the single-track segment between Guelph Station (which will soon have two tracks) and Georgetown. Note that without the second track at Guelph, bidirectional service doesn't make sense because it would require headways of nearly 2 hours.

Trains currently take 31 minutes to cover this segment, presumably 29 minutes skipping Acton. As a result, service cannot operate at less than 60 minute headways. At 60 minute headways (31 minutes to cross segment in peak direction, 29 in counter-peak) there is no schedule padding, but I couldn't resist the nice round number so that's what I used. In reality, a headway of around 65 min would be practical for bidirectional service.

Trainsets are in italics where they can be smaller (maybe 6 cars) since they never serve the peak direction into Toronto. You'll notice that I decided to put the VIA service out of its misery, having GO serve the entire Toronto-London corridor. VIA trains from Sarnia would go via Brantford instead, cutting their travel time by over an hour.

 

[drum118]

Not sure where you found a wye... But if you mean expansion of GO train parking close to King Street, I think that is unlikely. Land in the immediate vicinity is planned for high-density office and residential use, and should be quite expensive.

Stratford has been quite eager to offer its existing rail yard for use by GO Transit.

The way GO has expanded since day one, they should be servicing the area within 150km of Union Station.

It would make things easy for people wanting to go Stratford Theater with a yard there.

You can see the area on the west side of the wye, west side of King St Here.

 

[smallspy]

Given Hamilton's population is what? 500 000? ~120 000 in Cambridge, ~100 000 in Waterloo, ~200 000 in Kitchener, and ~90 000 in Milton. Total population of 1 million.

Isn't it wise for GO to provide some sort of inter city transit between these centres? Obviously the train lengths won't be 12 cars like with Toronto service but wouldn't some sort of service be of benefit?

Rail service between those cities isn't even remotely feasible in the short-term - the existing rail lines are not nearly direct enough. A bus service, however, would likely be well welcomed if it weren't for the fact that there are already private firms that operate routes serving at least most of those cities.

I don't know why two of the trips currently start from Bramalea, and only 3 from Georgetown, given that the storage capacity is more than 3 at Georgetown and less than 2 at Bramalea. Also note that the line currently only has a single track, so trains cannot do multiple runs on the line. But this schedule is post-2015, so you'll notice that trainset B1 does 3 runs during the peak period, providing counter-peak service as a side-effect.

I don't know how you can possibly think that there is storage capacity for "more than 3" trains at Georgetown, when there are only three storage tracks located there, and the tracks are only capable of storing a single 10-car train each.

As for the trains from Bramalea, those are dead-headed from Union. There is no storage necessary, as they are all trainsets allocated to other lines.

There was a plan to put a 2-train layover facility immediately west of Mount Pleasant - the switch off of the south main is still there - but I have no idea what is happening with that project.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ShonTron]

I don't know how you can possibly think that there is storage capacity for "more than 3" trains at Georgetown, when there are only three storage tracks located there, and the tracks are only capable of storing a single 10-car train each.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Because he's right? There's storage capacity for four 10-car trains at Georgetown, though one is now used as a through track post Kitchener extension. You'd just have to make sure the fourth train is good and gone before the first train from Kitchener shows up, and that the last train of the day terminates at Georgetown.

After all, how do you think the four trains in and out of Georgetown were stored between 1980 and 2009?

Of course, you're right about the trains to/from Bramalea being deadheaded to/from Union.

 

[TOareaFan]

Because he's right? There's storage capacity for four 10-car trains at Georgetown, though one is now used as a through track post Kitchener extension. You'd just have to make sure the fourth train is good and gone before the first train from Kitchener shows up, and that the last train of the day terminates at Georgetown.

Yes...prior to the KW extension of the line there were 4 trains stored there each night that started the GT corridor service in the morning....I think

 

[TOareaFan]

Introducing a bunch of new express trips to KW isn't the only way to get faster intercity service. I was suggesting making some new local trips around the same time, so that existing Kitchener runs can skip stops while maintaining or increasing the amount of service for each stop, but the quality of service goes up everywhere (faster trips). Here's what I'm talking about, though it is admittedly more ambitious than the 5 round trips we've been hearing about.

Trainsets are named based on the station they originate from. (K1 is the first set to leave Kitchener, etc.). I don't know why two of the trips currently start from Bramalea, and only 3 from Georgetown, given that the storage capacity is more than 3 at Georgetown and less than 2 at Bramalea. Also note that the line currently only has a single track, so trains cannot do multiple runs on the line. But this schedule is post-2015, so you'll notice that trainset B1 does 3 runs during the peak period, providing counter-peak service as a side-effect.

The 5 additional return trips (10 trips total) is relative to the pre-construction service levels.

Relative to today (which is what I think you are comparing) there are going to be more than 5 additional return trips as the what has been promised is restoration of the previous off peak service plus up to 10 more trains.

I think the trains that were cancelled were 10:15, 12:15 and 1:45 eastbound from Bramalea and 9:30, 11:30 13:00 and 2:30 from Union to Bramalea.

The questions that have never been answered (as far as I know) is when these trains are "restored" are they going to be restored at the same time schedule and will they be restored as to/from Bramalea only.

 

[ShonTron]

I think the trains that were cancelled were 10:15, 12:15 and 1:45 eastbound from Bramalea and 9:30, 11:30 13:00 and 2:30 from Union to Bramalea.

The questions that have never been answered (as far as I know) is when these trains are "restored" are they going to be restored at the same time schedule and will they be restored as to/from Bramalea only.

That'd be fine if coming from Bramalea, Malton or the Toronto stop or if you like TRAINS!!! but it screws Georgetown/Brampton commuters who are, IMO, much better served by the current direct, express, half-hourly bus service to Union Station during those time periods. The forced transfer adds up to 30 minutes to the trip from Brampton vs. the direct 410 bus.

 

[smallspy]

Because he's right? There's storage capacity for four 10-car trains at Georgetown, though one is now used as a through track post Kitchener extension. You'd just have to make sure the fourth train is good and gone before the first train from Kitchener shows up, and that the last train of the day terminates at Georgetown.

After all, how do you think the four trains in and out of Georgetown were stored between 1980 and 2009?

Of course, you're right about the trains to/from Bramalea being deadheaded to/from Union.

Except that he isn't right.

That track was a yard (Rule 105) track until 2009. It no longer is, and the wayside cabinets have been disconnected.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

That'd be fine if coming from Bramalea, Malton or the Toronto stop or if you like TRAINS!!! but it screws Georgetown/Brampton commuters who are, IMO, much better served by the current direct, express, half-hourly bus service to Union Station during those time periods. The forced transfer adds up to 30 minutes to the trip from Brampton vs. the direct 410 bus.

Surely the best answer is to extend those trains beyond Bramalea though? The Bus/train extensions are slower because of a couple of factors 1) operating in the very slow traffic in Brampton and 2) all of a sudden turning into local buses.

The first one causes the schedules to be padded ...the bus, for example, that leaves Brampton to connect with that 9:40 a.m. EB train at Bramalea leaves Brampton at 9:00...is scheduled for a 21 minute bus trip and a 19 minute layover at Bramalea.....then a 40 minute train trip which turns the total Brampton - Union travel time to 80 minutes....if it was train all the way it would be about 50 minutes.

It is little wonder how few people actually make that connection.

The second factor always baffled me....back in the day when the 6:45 pm WB train (now 6:50) used to end at Bramalea I found it bizarre that a bus which was supposed to be a train extension was all of a sudden stopping to drop off (and ocassionally pick up) passengers at, what, about 10 stops along the way to the Brampton station.

Now that this train goes beyond Bramalea, it sees many more passengers going beyond Bramalea than the previous bus extensions could ever have handled.

 

[TOareaFan]

Except that he isn't right.

That track was a yard (Rule 105) track until 2009. It no longer is, and the wayside cabinets have been disconnected.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

So the correct answer was that it used to be able to handle 4 trains overnight and now can only handle 3? Makes more sense.

 

[mpd618]

Rail service between those cities isn't even remotely feasible in the short-term - the existing rail lines are not nearly direct enough. A bus service, however, would likely be well welcomed if it weren't for the fact that there are already private firms that operate routes serving at least most of those cities.

More GO service would be welcomed partially because of the quality of the current monopoly bus service.