GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[AnarchoSocialist]

I'd be willing to bet that even at 2 hours and with minimal investment this service will be a success. It seems like every time GO expands their service they meet or exceed their goals. Their is so much demand for commuter rail services all across the GTA and GGH that even service that is of marginal quality will do well. I would suspect that in a years time the debate will be about how to quickly expand infrastructure to increase service to much higher levels, not about how this service didn't turn out well for GO.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'd be willing to bet that even at 2 hours and with minimal investment this service will be a success. It seems like every time GO expands their service they meet or exceed their goals. Their is so much demand for commuter rail services all across the GTA and GGH that even service that is of marginal quality will do well. I would suspect that in a years time the debate will be about how to quickly expand infrastructure to increase service to much higher levels, not about how this service didn't turn out well for GO.

That is a pretty easy thing to achieve when you don't have to clearly articulate your "goals".....if they had to say in advance "this will be a success when we average "X" ridership level or when the fare recovery achieves "Y" " would that still be the case...I am not so sure.

If a service serves any number of people of course they will be clamoring for more service but what is the sustainable level of that service...that is a different issue.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

^Not every decision can or should be made based purely on numbers. Sometimes a decision that doesn't yield the most benefit right away may be great in the long term. Service to K-W is a good example. It may or may not have a good return on investment compared to other projects. But it also puts the service in place and not only meets a demand that is there, but gives people something tangible to see and use. People use it, they talk about it, discussions begin about what could be better (be it length of trip, time of trips, what stops are served, etc).

This kind of growth also benefits those living in or close to Toronto. GO sees there is clear demand, wants to increase service to not only K-W but other places further outside of the GTA, but cant because the inner city infrastructure needs more upgrades (electrification, more tracks, grade separation, etc). Inner GTA people can support it since it will clearly benefit them, and those outside the GTA support it because it will improve their service too.

Yes in an ideal transit geek world they would already be electrifying tracks and running 15 minute frequencies, etc, etc. But what matters is how projects like this are perceived by the public at large; those who don't care about the technical details and just want commuting to be easier or less stressful or quicker. Strategy and public perception are important factors which shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[TOareaFan]

^Not every decision can or should be made based purely on numbers. Sometimes a decision that doesn't yield the most benefit right away may be great in the long term. Service to K-W is a good example. It may or may not have a good return on investment compared to other projects. But it also puts the service in place and not only meets a demand that is there, but gives people something tangible to see and use. People use it, they talk about it, discussions begin about what could be better (be it length of trip, time of trips, what stops are served, etc).

This kind of growth also benefits those living in or close to Toronto. GO sees there is clear demand, wants to increase service to not only K-W but other places further outside of the GTA, but cant because the inner city infrastructure needs more upgrades (electrification, more tracks, grade separation, etc). Inner GTA people can support it since it will clearly benefit them, and those outside the GTA support it because it will improve their service too.

Yes in an ideal transit geek world they would already be electrifying tracks and running 15 minute frequencies, etc, etc. But what matters is how projects like this are perceived by the public at large; those who don't care about the technical details and just want commuting to be easier or less stressful or quicker. Strategy and public perception are important factors which shouldn't be overlooked.

I never said the clearly defined goals had to be numerical....but there are not too many arms of government spending these amounts of money that do not need to tell us exactly what their goal is.

This may be a perfect example.....what would be wrong with "our goal in establishing the K-W service is to bring on line a new service/storage yard that will allow us to more effectively maximize the investment in the Georgetown line by more quickly enabling the use of 12 car trainsets while, at the same time, doing live market testing of the K-W rail market before investing significant amounts of public money in the rail infrastructure beyond Georgetown to K-W. At present our market research indicates the daily commuter population from K-W is "X", if this test is able to attract something approaching "Y%" of those people out of their cars we would consider this a sufficient level to further study the impact that significant investment would have".

Instead we get a rush launch of a new service with minimal explanation of the benefits and without goals that can measure the success of that service.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

^Fair enough. And I haven't looked through the technical document on the project in a while so I am not sure what the exact numbers are but most documents do discuss load factors, ridership projections, etc. For someone who wants those details on the project, they are really not hard to find.

I can also see the point about wondering why they would start some service now without the rest of the project being done. They probably just want people to be able to start using the GO train now. At the end of the day technical details are going to be of interest to very very few people. What matters is when GO says "GO Train service between Union and K-W to begin...." and eventually "GO Train travel times to decrease by..." or "Frequency to be increased to...". There was a project which is suffering delays and this is the way they can at least start some service and get some commuters onto a train...that seems like a goal in its self.

 

[DavidJamesTO]

It's hardly a 'rush launch' if the service is launched two and a half years after the study began.

 

[nfitz]

It's hardly a 'rush launch' if the service is launched two and a half years after the study began.

It's hardly a rush launch as 2 out of 3 of the stations they starting are simply re-opening old GO stations that were closed by the Harris government.

Kitchener itself might be getting 5 trains instead of the 3 they had then; but they used to have 5 VIA trains a day before the Tory government cut it to 3.

 

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

The idea of K-W becoming a bedroom community as a result of the GO extension is a moot point, judging by the daily commuter traffic on Highways 7 and 401. I believe that it already is a bedroom community to Toronto, however at the same time still has enough business and institutional concentration to be its own city.

About half of that traffic on the 401 is transport trucks. There is also a great deal of long-distance travel on the 401 (and QEW) as a result of being the main street of the Windsor-Quebec corridor.

Not sure how 3-4% of your labour force commuting to the GTA constitutes being a 'bedroom community' anymore than Stratford and Woodstock are bedroom communities of KWC.

But you're right about it being a moot point though. If they don't take the GO-train, they'll just take the 401 anyways.

I believe the market exists for better train service to K-W and even VIA service to K-W is pretty abysmal due to the travel times. Considering the alternative is to keep throwing money at the 401 between Toronto and K-W, the Highway 8 connection to the 401, Highway 7 between Guelph and Kitchener

Highways 7 and 8 have far more to do with internal traffic in the Waterloo-Wellington area (population of ~800,000) than they have to do with demand for travel to downtown Toronto. LRT will be much more effective than the GO train in taking cars off highway 8 and the Conestoga Parkway in particular.

Even in regards to the 401, Mississauga is the biggest commuter destination in the GTA for people in Waterloo Region. The GTA and GGH are progressing into an increasingly polycentric region, much like Los Angeles. While I think it's great for people to be able to access downtown Toronto without a car, many other investments will still need to be made. The inability of GO to capitalize on this is what I see as one of its biggest failures.

 

[Northern Light]

The Mississauga question is an interesting one...............how about tying the Georgetown and Milton Lines together by a new link, or rebuilding the old Streetsville one, and running a K-C to MCC train?

 

[ShonTron]

This is why the Hurontario LRT makes so much sense, but only if it goes as far north as Downtown Brampton, which is a logical place for all GO trains to stop, as it is also a VIA station. I would also hope that a direct bus down Mississauga Road from Mount Pleasant will come; that would allow the Meadowvale employment areas to have decent service from the line as well. Note that by the fall of 2011, the 502 will provide express bus service from Downtown Brampton to MCC.

I would hope that any Kitchener GO trains go non-stop from Brampton inbound, as if you let anyone on at Bramalea or Malton, the trains would become dangerously overcrowded and slower. Brampton is useful, mostly as an off-station, especially if there are local trains starting from there or Mount Pleasant

 

[ShonTron]

The Mississauga question is an interesting one...............how about tying the Georgetown and Milton Lines together by a new link, or rebuilding the old Streetsville one, and running a K-C to MCC train?

I'll raise you one with regards to using the OBRY track to Streetsville - which is unrealistic. Why not run a train over CP tracks from Kitchener to MCC via Cambridge on the old Grand River Railway to the Galt Sub? You'd get Cambridge that way. Another more realistic alignment would be to switch from CN/GEXR to the Guelph Junction Railway, though that would require some interesting engineering if you want a direct connection between the two in Downtown Guelph.

 

[dunkalunk]

I'll raise you one with regards to using the OBRY track to Streetsville - which is unrealistic. Why not run a train over CP tracks from Kitchener to MCC via Cambridge on the old Grand River Railway to the Galt Sub? You'd get Cambridge that way. Another more realistic alignment would be to switch from CN/GEXR to the Guelph Junction Railway, though that would require some interesting engineering if you want a direct connection between the two in Downtown Guelph.

The CP line through Cambridge is heavily used by Toyota, and with much of this line being single-tracked it would be incredibly difficult to run a reliable train service.

One thing I could see in the future however would be a GO train running along the scarecely used GEXR Fergus subdivision from a station at Hespeler Road and Coronation to stations in Preston and Hespeler and then connecting to the north mainline in Guelph. In the future, Milton trains could even loop around to become Toronto-bound trains on an upgraded and Go-owned north mainline. (but this is me dreaming)

I too would also love to see the Guelph Junction Railway Upgraded, as it stands now, the curves through Waterdown and the traffic on the Bayview Junction would be too restrictive to running any sort of service at competitive speeds to car travel. And to create a new rail connection to the Oakville subdivision would require either a tunnel under Waterdown, or a new cut in the escarpment.

While I do believe the inauguration of GO train service is an important step for increasing train traffic and building momentum for track improvements along the north mainline and a light rail system in KW, personally, I think it would be nice if some of current Waterloo GO buses were diverted to Aldershot via Highway 6. You could still get the same 2 hour journey into Toronto, but also have better connections to Hamilton and other places along the lake shore, probably for a lot less money. Buses would also be not as aversely effected by congestion on the 401 and would almost always be able to make the train-bus transfer.

 

[ShonTron]

I was half-kidding, but the Guelph Junction Railway is only the section of railway between Guelph and Guelph Junction, the Guelph Junction (there are two!, the other one is the CN/GEXR Hespeler and Guelph sub junction in Guelph) that is on the CP mainline west of Campbellville, trains would continue to Mississauga via the CP Galt Sub. Interestingly, the GJR has been municipally owned since the 1880s, it was intended to provide an alternative to the Grand Trunk's monopoly in town after it bought the Wellington, Grey and Bruce. The Guelph Junction-Hamilton route was always owned by CP, it provided an alternative to its then majority-owned TH&B railway, which before relied on Grand Trunk running rights, on the same route the Hunter Street GO trains use today.

Of course, a Kitchener-Guelph-Milton-MCC-Union service is not that realistic. I think there is a strong case for improved Kitchener-Hamilton connections (Coach Canada doesn't cut it), I would love this to be a rail link via the CP ex-GRR line and the abandoned CN route south of Galt through Branchton.

I also find it sad that Coach Canada abandoned the Guelph-Hamilton route last year (I happened to ride the third last bus from Guelph; it was cut from three times daily to once a week just before complete abandonment), though this is really the perfect GO-type market; it would serve not just Guelph-Mac-Hamilton runs well; it would also pick up travellers, students largely, from Oakville and Burlington as well.

 

[Northern Light]

Hmm, I'm not sure why using part of the Credit Valley/OBRY alignment is such a bad idea.

I'm aware the track is in terrible condition (or absent) but the alignment/ROW is there.

Here's what I'm looking at:

Immediately east of Lisgar Station on the Milton Line, there is a clear line (open/undeveloped land) going n/e to meet the OBRY ROW somewhere near Elderado Park.

Best I can figure, once you get past 407, you have no more than 3-4 streets to cross, a distance of 3-4km?, maybe less.

It looks like a pretty sensible line, and affordable for so long as that land remains undeveloped.

That would facilitate a Milton - Brampton, or Brampton to MCC alignment.

There are lots of connections we've all noticed, that can/should be made; but many would be profoundly costly or are precluded, for now, due to long distances or too much development in the way.

This connection looks, cheap, efficient and logical to me.

If not, and I do respect the knowledge of my fine wise friends here.... Please enlighten me!

 

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

This is why the Hurontario LRT makes so much sense, but only if it goes as far north as Downtown Brampton, which is a logical place for all GO trains to stop, as it is also a VIA station. I would also hope that a direct bus down Mississauga Road from Mount Pleasant will come; that would allow the Meadowvale employment areas to have decent service from the line as well. Note that by the fall of 2011, the 502 will provide express bus service from Downtown Brampton to MCC.

I would hope that any Kitchener GO trains go non-stop from Brampton inbound, as if you let anyone on at Bramalea or Malton, the trains would become dangerously overcrowded and slower. Brampton is useful, mostly as an off-station, especially if there are local trains starting from there or Mount Pleasant

I really like this idea. There is no reason why our future LRT systems (fingers crossed) shouldn't all be integrated with the GO-train network, or better yet, high speed rail.

Due to Mississauga's dispersed nature of land-use, you can't possibly serve every corridor with higher-order transit. But the Hurontario corridor has so much packed onto it as a destination, and has sufficient density, that it would be an ideal corridor for even an express GO-train to connect with.

Similarly the Waterloo Region LRT should be integrated with the GO-train in the future. The biggest hurdles over the longer term would be dealing with the issues that are blocking Cambridge from getting access to both systems.