GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[reaperexpress]

1400 people per 3 minutes is not enough? But the GO train is farther apart...by the time it shows up the subway would have cleared the crowd...

I'd tell you to do the basic arithmetic with realistic numbers to calculate how long the subway would take to clear the 40000 concert goers but you don't even need to because I already did so on the previous page.

 

[SubHuman]

... There is a staging point on the Barrie line at the site of the former York U station. That's where two of the three extra GO trains are stored. My guess is the third train runs north in front of the 22:54 departure from Union and sits in the second track north of Snider diamond (the last southbound train has already passed at that point). They could potentially add more extra trains by storing them in the siding north of Maple.

... Three additional South bound trains after the concert ends. Why southbound when the TTC already provides service to Union?
3 trains to Barrie would be more logical. Am I wrong?

I'd assume a lot of those from north of the city would be taking the subway north to the TTC station parking lots (407 station, etc.).
TTC buses also keep going after midnight in all directions, including along Sheppard towards the Yonge subway, where other GO and YRT bus routes head north from Finch station.
Not ideal, but someone could take a GO Train to Union, then a GO bus to points north of the city (Newmarket, for example).
You'd think they could also add some special event northbound late GO buses (or York Region Transit) that could depart from the vicinity of the venue, or 407 station.

Everyone should check a transit app (Triplinx, Google map transit directions, etc.) well ahead of time for at least a couple of different times and routes they could use to get home.

 

[Krypto98]

The issue is Uber Couriers.

I recall a few times at Union where the platforms were crowded with Bramptonites and their bikes heading to work. If they were not in designated bike cars the trains would have been a fire hazard.

This is one of the reasons I was in favor of banning e-bikes on GO trains.

How many loaded bike coaches or e-bikes need to be on a GO Train before it becomes a "Key Train" or "Special Dangerous" train

 

[WB62]

I was curious how the crowding at Downsview Park would be handled after the first concert at the Roger’s Stadium, so I went there towards the end of the concert to have a look.

By 10pm (over an hour to the end of the concert) there was a consistent flow of people leaving the stadium, from 11:15pm to 12:20am there was a massive amount of people going down into the TTC subway and to the GO platform.

1400 people per 3 minutes is not enough? But the GO train is farther apart...by the time it shows up the subway would have cleared the crowd...

The subway alone could not have cleared the crowd before the 3 southbound GO trains began arriving at Downsview, that’s just a ridiculous idea.

11:15pm:

12:13am:

The crowd died off pretty abruptly after around 12:20, this was taken at 12:33am:

 

[C_Johnson_1995]

Interesting slides from Niagara Regional Council outlining the path to more GO service.

View attachment 663706

I have issues with the second slide. In what way does GO taking ownership ensure continued freight access? Freight service on the line is under no threat. Passenger trains and freight trains also have different operating profiles and compete for track capacity.

If CN sells, they will be pushed into the margins with narrow, inflexible time windows of operation, and this will inevitably lead to a decline of traffic with many shippers opting to either move their traffic over CPKC or shift to road delivery. This is basically what has happened on the Oakville Sub in combination with other trends. It's likely that by the time electrification is complete or shortly after, CN will have completely exited service on that line. Even the Guelph Junction Railway's annual report for 2024 acknowledges that 2WAD service on the Kitchener line will increasingly push CN out of Guelph, causing that traffic to move on the GJRY.

 

[crs1026]

I have issues with the second slide. In what way does GO taking ownership ensure continued freight access? Freight service on the line is under no threat. Passenger trains and freight trains also have different operating profiles and compete for track capacity.

If CN sells, they will be pushed into the margins with narrow, inflexible time windows of operation, and this will inevitably lead to a decline of traffic with many shippers opting to either move their traffic over CPKC or shift to road delivery. This is basically what has happened on the Oakville Sub in combination with other trends. It's likely that by the time electrification is complete or shortly after, CN will have completely exited service on that line. Even the Guelph Junction Railway's annual report for 2024 acknowledges that 2WAD service on the Kitchener line will increasingly push CN out of Guelph, causing that traffic to move on the GJRY.

That's why there are lawyers, and trackage rights agreements.

The GJR report does not claim that GO Expansion will harm shippers or industries in Guelph, or discourage shipping by rail. Quite the opposite.... it points out that the change presents an opportunity to build GJR's business. Implied, but carefully phrased, is the reality that CN and GJR have ample access to each others' trackage in Guelph, so GJR can easily take up any slack that CN experiences.

And in fact, CN operates quite freely out of Kitchener in both directions. One of the (frustrating, perhaps) holdups in finishing the new GO trackage in Guelph was pressure from CN and GJR to improve the design to accommodate their interests. ML did amend the plan to address this.

Lastly, CN would never have sold the Guelph line to ML without satisfying themselves that their interests were appropriately accommodated.

As to Niagara, CN does not actually run that much traffic on the line, and there is loads of capacity that can be handed to ML without constraining CN. And again, there is no gun being held to CN's head. It's win-win.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

I have issues with the second slide. In what way does GO taking ownership ensure continued freight access? Freight service on the line is under no threat. Passenger trains and freight trains also have different operating profiles and compete for track capacity.

If CN sells, they will be pushed into the margins with narrow, inflexible time windows of operation, and this will inevitably lead to a decline of traffic with many shippers opting to either move their traffic over CPKC or shift to road delivery. This is basically what has happened on the Oakville Sub in combination with other trends. It's likely that by the time electrification is complete or shortly after, CN will have completely exited service on that line. Even the Guelph Junction Railway's annual report for 2024 acknowledges that 2WAD service on the Kitchener line will increasingly push CN out of Guelph, causing that traffic to move on the GJRY.

This is simply inaccurate.

@crs1026 has already explained why above.

 

[C_Johnson_1995]

As to Niagara, CN does not actually run that much traffic on the line, and there is loads of capacity that can be handed to ML without constraining CN. And again, there is no gun being held to CN's head. It's win-win.

- Paul

This is actually an important point which leads me to my other point. In terms of actual daily movements over the line, there is already room for more GO service. In general, I fail to see the capacity constraints acquiring the line releases. Given that all the freights are through by the morning, there isn't any reason GO couldn't add more trips to Niagara already other than crewing, and fleet. The two most relevant line capacity constraints are Bayview and the Seaway which acquiring the line does not in any way address, at least not in a way that let's you magically get to 9 daily trips just by owning the line as this presentation claims.

 

[crs1026]

This is actually an important point which leads me to my other point. In terms of actual daily movements over the line, there is already room for more GO service. In general, I fail to see the capacity constraints acquiring the line releases. Given that all the freights are through by the morning, there isn't any reason GO couldn't add more trips to Niagara already other than crewing, and fleet. The two most relevant line capacity constraints are Bayview and the Seaway which acquiring the line does not in any way address, at least not in a way that let's you magically get to 9 daily trips just by owning the line.

it's a better commercial and operational relationship. ML doesn't have to get CN's attention and buyin for whatever changes it proposes, Far less haggling and more direct control over that capacity.
CN is relieved of fixed costs and of accountability for dispatching and operating to meet a service commitment to GO. Less management attention required over an activity that is peripheral to CN's business. And CN reduces its capitalisation and asset base without reducing its revenue or absorbing additional operating cost, and pockets the purchase price.
Metrolinx absorbs the management headaches in return for freeing up a greater share of the capacity. CN retains enough rights and flexibility in access for its needs.

- Paul

 

[Sauga89]

This is actually an important point which leads me to my other point. In terms of actual daily movements over the line, there is already room for more GO service. In general, I fail to see the capacity constraints acquiring the line releases. Given that all the freights are through by the morning, there isn't any reason GO couldn't add more trips to Niagara already other than crewing, and fleet. The two most relevant line capacity constraints are Bayview and the Seaway which acquiring the line does not in any way address, at least not in a way that let's you magically get to 9 daily trips just by owning the line as this presentation claims.

We do have a Niagara specific GO thread where this has been discussed if you want to read recent discussions on this topic.

 

[reaperexpress]

I was curious how the crowding at Downsview Park would be handled after the first concert at the Roger’s Stadium, so I went there towards the end of the concert to have a look.

By 10pm (over an hour to the end of the concert) there was a consistent flow of people leaving the stadium, from 11:15pm to 12:20am there was a massive amount of people going down into the TTC subway and to the GO platform.



The subway alone could not have cleared the crowd before the 3 southbound GO trains began arriving at Downsview, that’s just a ridiculous idea.

11:15pm:

View attachment 667961

12:13am:

View attachment 667967

View attachment 667962

The crowd died off pretty abruptly after around 12:20, this was taken at 12:33am:

View attachment 667968

Amazing reporting, thanks! Were you able to see how busy the GO trains were? Reports after the stray kids concert indicated they were departing half-empty

 

[WB62]

Amazing reporting, thanks! Were you able to see how busy the GO trains were? Reports after the stray kids concert indicated they were departing half-empty

No problem!

Yep fully believe that, there wasn’t enough signage advertising the GO service on the approach to the station, everyone’s first option was the subway.

Luckily this seems to have improved, they added multiple digital signs since I’ve been there, here’s a photo from tonight’s concert:

I overheard the estimate from the stationmaster at Downsview that night, they were saying roughly 2k total riders on the first 2 trains, which quite literally is half the seated capacity on a 12 car train, even less if you want to consider standing capacity.

 

[Allandale25]

 

[nfitz]

View attachment 668952

A valiant effort. But obviously will be futile when there's only 2 tracks along Ontario line segment. But perhaps it will encourage Metrolinx to fast-track the third track and restoration a bit. Metrolinx is notorious for waiting a long time after construction is complete, before instituting service changes.

I have no idea how they could have promised a September 2024 date. The construction in that segment has been impressively efficient and fast from an observer's point of view. I don't know if the start was delayed or something?

 

[Metroscapes]

Dee

A valiant effort. But obviously will be futile when there's only 2 tracks along Ontario line segment. But perhaps it will encourage Metrolinx to fast-track the third track and restoration a bit. Metrolinx is notorious for waiting a long time after construction is complete, before instituting service changes.

I have no idea how they could have promised a September 2024 date. The construction in that segment has been impressively efficient and fast from an observer's point of view. I don't know if the start was delayed or something?

That seems tight. But I think the principle here is that, even if there were legit delays, there's no explanation or attempt to publicly communicate a new target. It's just clamming up and smiling nervously.