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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

Signal issues and broken down train blocking the track on the Kitchener Line today. I think around Weston. A little surprised about the signal reference since I assume they are part of the GTS work and fairly new, but I guess anything can happen. I wonder if the broken train reflects the challenges of aging engines? Any insights @smallspy?
 
Interesting slides from Niagara Regional Council outlining the path to more GO service.

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Which of course raises the questions “Why would CN sell the Grimsby Sub?” and “How would CN’s trains travel from Toronto to Buffalo?”…
 
Which of course raises the questions “Why would CN sell the Grimsby Sub?” and “How would CN’s trains travel from Toronto to Buffalo?”…

An obvious answer would be "The same way that CN gets to Guelph and Kitchener over a former CN line now owned by Metrolinx".

As to why - we would have to see the spreadsheet showing the annual fixed costs of the line which CN would pass to Ontario, versus what CN would pay to keep using the line..... plotted against the purchase price.

Net Present Value is your friend.

- Paul
 
Which of course raises the questions “Why would CN sell the Grimsby Sub?” and “How would CN’s trains travel from Toronto to Buffalo?”…

@crs1026 makes the point above............but we need to be clear here, CN has been open to selling Grimsby for years..........it is not core to their operations, and running rights are more than sufficient to serve their purposes here.

An Mx owned Grimsby gives them multiple positives.

1) A one-time injection of cash.....a decent number, nothing that will affect CN beyond a quarter, but a nice bump whether redeployed for capital, strategic purchases or a share buy-back.

2) A much better maintained line, with more freight capacity than it has today. The ultimate build-out here is fully restored twin track, including additional separations, better track classification (improved speed) and lets CN move everything it does today and more in the overnight hours.

On top of all that, it takes an aging asset in need of maintence off their capital books.

Win-Win-Win.
 
@crs1026 makes the point above............but we need to be clear here, CN has been open to selling Grimsby for years..........
Have they?

I like to think that I'm pretty well connected in the industry, and I have never once heard of CN entertaining the thought of selling the line outside of railfan speculation on forums like this.

It should be pointed out that they have been regularly investing in their fixed plant along the line as well, including recently wrapping up a multi-year program to rebuild the lift bridge over the Canal. If they were really so gung-ho on selling it, those are the exact types of costs that they would avoid if they could in order to pass them on to the future owners. They have certainly done exactly that in the past.

Dan
 
Have they?

Yes.

I like to think that I'm pretty well connected in the industry,

You are.

and I have never once heard of CN entertaining the thought of selling the line outside of railfan speculation on forums like this.

You missed one........ happens to the best of us. LOL

It should be pointed out that they have been regularly investing in their fixed plant along the line as well, including recently wrapping up a multi-year program to rebuild the lift bridge over the Canal. If they were really so gung-ho on selling it, those are the exact types of costs that they would avoid if they could in order to pass them on to the future owners. They have certainly done exactly that in the past.

Dan

All of what you say makes perfect sense; however, I am aware of the conversation having happened before, some years ago. (2010s) and again more recently.
 
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Have they?

I like to think that I'm pretty well connected in the industry, and I have never once heard of CN entertaining the thought of selling the line outside of railfan speculation on forums like this.

There was a "demonstration run" a few years back (more than I may be recalling, but even so...) where CN ran an executive train along the line with a load of local politicians. This was widely reported as a sales pitch indicating CN's willingness to sell the line, and has been remembered ever since. (It may have been an attempt to secure funding, without considering sale, but the train run was more than CN usually expends on pure local goodwill absent an agenda).
Today's position at CN may be different....but....it's all about the purchase price. I'm sure CN realizes that the line is strategically located as a competitor to QEW and a logical GO extension. And looking at their own operation, we don't really know how rates are divided between CN and NS/CSX on the traffic interchanged at the border, or how many car-miles CN earns from that traffic. The traffic may be close to a losing proposition that CN can't shed but may not contribute much to fixed costs. It's not unreasonable to speculate that the line is a) expensive to run and b) not very remunerative, and if that's how CN sees it, there's a plausible connection. But a good theory is not proof.

It should be pointed out that they have been regularly investing in their fixed plant along the line as well, including recently wrapping up a multi-year program to rebuild the lift bridge over the Canal. If they were really so gung-ho on selling it, those are the exact types of costs that they would avoid if they could in order to pass them on to the future owners. They have certainly done exactly that in the past.

You read my mind, sort of. I was about to post a comment about how we don't know where the line sits in CN's capital and life cycle programs. There is aging heavy infrastructure on the line (bridges, etc) that may need a lot of work. It may be a good time to have someone else pay for that work.

So, speculating about CN selling the line has face validity, even if we don't know the management position.

As usual, a big bag of money could change things.

- Paul
 
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So, speculating about CN selling the line has face validity, even if we don't know the management position.

As usual, a big bag of money could change things.

- Paul

To be emphatic, CN's position IS that they are willing to sell.

The region has reported on this publicly, the presenter spoke to this at Council.

The only parts that are 'speculative' are the price, and whether the province will pony up.
 
I have never once heard of CN entertaining the thought of selling the line outside of railfan speculation on forums like this.
Not to beat a dead horse, but if anyone wants to hear it for themselves, the region's staff person is asked directly about this at the 2 hour 26 minute mark in this video recording of the council meeting.
(Councillor Vance Badawey): So they are...entertaining divesting themselves of that track?

(Cheryl Selig - region staff): It's our understanding in our conversations that they are open to that.

It's not directly from CN, but the regional staff certainly seem to believe CN is willing to sell.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but if anyone wants to hear it for themselves, the region's staff person is asked directly about this at the 2 hour 26 minute mark in this video recording of the council meeting.


It's not directly from CN, but the regional staff certainly seem to believe CN is willing to sell.
Are they supposed to say “no fn way they’re selling!” I mean they are saying what we want to hear without anyway for us to confirm if it’s true or not. I’ll believe it when I see it.
 
Stoufville 810 train broken down.... 840 train super delayed... whats going on this morning.....
 
At 1,200 people per train, even 15 minute 2WAD does not empty a 30,000 seat venue very fast. Subway helps a lot, but that's 1,000 riders every two minutes at very optimistic headways. Building Line 4 west from Yonge will help.
A 12-car GO Train has 1800 seats, and a crush load of about 3000 people. So the post-concert train service (every 10 minutes) has a capacity of 18 000 people per hour, which is about the same as each direction of the subway (given that it takes a couple minutes to fill up each subway train, so the best headway is about 4 minutes).

During the first half-hour after the concert, the capacity is approximately:
3x 3000 people - SB GO Train (every 10 minutes)
7.5x 1000 people - NB subway (every 4 minutes)
7.5x 1000 people - SB subway (every 4 minutes)
Total: 24 000 people carried in 30 minutes

It doesn't matter that the GO trains can't single-handedly empty the stadium because most people are not heading to Union anyway. The limitation to the GO trains seems to be demand rather than capacity. The vast majority of people leaving the event head into the subway, presumably because they're going somewhere other than downtown. Thousands of people also head northbound on the subway to get back to the park-and-ride lots:
Finch W: 347 spaces
Pioneer Village: 1881 spaces
Hwy 407: 550 spaces
VMC: 900 spaces
Total: 3678

Based on the photos from the Stray Kids concert, the GO trains were departing only about 1/3 full, and when the last train departed there were still thousands of people who hadn't reached the station yet. By some accounts it took over an hour to walk the 1.3 km from the stadium to the station, which is exactly what I'd expect with such large crowds. I find it insane that they decided to build the stadium so far from the station considering they force everyone to take transit and there's no reasonable walking route from Sheppard West, but that's a separate issue.
RogersStadiumMap.png


GO Transit claims that there are onward connections at Union for the Kitchener, Lakeshore East, Lakeshore West and Stouffville lines, but if you check the updated schedules the last Kitchener train still departs Union before the first train from the concert arrives.

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Capture2.PNG

Maybe if they actually scheduled extra connecting trains at Union they'd have an easier time convincing people to take the GO train at Downsview Park.

I know of no plans to add staging points to the Barrie line that would allow extra GO trains to be added, as happens at Union on major event nights.
There is a staging point on the Barrie line at the site of the former York U station. That's where two of the three extra GO trains are stored. My guess is the third train runs north in front of the 22:54 departure from Union and sits in the second track north of Snider diamond (the last southbound train has already passed at that point). They could potentially add more extra trains by storing them in the siding north of Maple.
 
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