GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

Even ignoring Metrolinx's Toronto-centric upbringing and habits,

As much as I have my own active stream of Metrolinx bashing, I think we need to not be divisive or cavalier in throwing around Toronto bashing remarks.

So, just to be pedantic, here's a link to the Metrolinx Act which sets out its regional mandate

To quote the Act:

“regional transportation area” means the area comprised of,
(a) the geographic areas of,

(i) the City of Toronto,​

(ii) the City of Hamilton,​

(iii) the Regional Municipality of Durham,​

(iv) the Regional Municipality of Halton,​

(v) the Regional Municipality of Peel,​

(vi) the Regional Municipality of York,​

(vii) the Regional Municipality of Niagara,​

(viii) Haldimand County,​

(ix) the County of Brant,​

(x) the City of Brantford,​

(xi) the Regional Municipality of Waterloo,​

(xii) the County of Wellington,​

(xiii) the City of Guelph,​

(xiv) the County of Dufferin,​

(xv) the County of Simcoe,​

(xvi) the City of Barrie,​

(xvii) the City of Orillia,​

(xviii) the City of Kawartha Lakes,​

(xix) the County of Peterborough,​

(xx) the City of Peterborough, and​

(xxi) the County of Northumberland, and​

(b) any additional prescribed areas; (“secteur régional de transport”)

On a percentage basis, I would say ML is definitely concerning itself with many, but possibly not all of its mandated constituents....and some that we are eager to see don't fall within this list. And there are those who would argue that ML has actually not put a priority in intra-Toronto matters (cough Smarttrack cough)

And yeah, as a matter of expediency, I would get 2WAD built to St Catharines as a priority - a very straightforward and doable fast trackable project - and leave the connections onward for more intensive planning, with bus links for the moment.

- Paul

 

[Metroscapes]

As much as I have my own active stream of Metrolinx bashing, I think we need to not be divisive or cavalier in throwing around Toronto bashing remarks.

So, just to be pedantic, here's a link to the Metrolinx Act which sets out its regional mandate

To quote the Act:



On a percentage basis, I would say ML is definitely concerning itself with many, but possibly not all of its mandated constituents....and some that we are eager to see don't fall within this list. And there are those who would argue that ML has actually not put a priority in intra-Toronto matters (cough Smarttrack cough)

And yeah, as a matter of expediency, I would get 2WAD built to St Catharines as a priority - a very straightforward and doable fast trackable project - and leave the connections onward for more intensive planning, with bus links for the moment.

- Paul

I get where you're coming from, but respectfully (to you and MX), I reserve the right to bash all I want as a Guelph resident. It took 14 years between the cancellation of Coach Canada service between Guelph and Hamilton (and the rest of Niagara), and the introduction of the 17 bus. And they still didn't get it right; it's extremely limited on weekends, and it stops at Victoria St. @ Frederick St in Kitchener, instead connecting Kitchener and Guelph Central Stations directly. It's also been 14 years since service was extended to Kitchener, and there's no weekend service (again, not a big deal for Kitchener <> Guelph travel if the direct bus connection was there). Nor is there any service between Guelph / KW and downtown Galt (or Hespeler Village), or direct between Cambridge and Hamilton/Niagara.

Big rant, but my point is intercity connections in Wellington/Waterloo are poor, and you could probably get similar perspectives from locals in other towns with limited GO trains.

 

[nfitz]

Big rant, but my point is intercity connections in Wellington/Waterloo are poor, and you could probably get similar perspectives from locals in other towns with limited GO trains.

And why aren't county/regions like Wellington/Waterloo not using their own transit agencies to provide such connections?

What next, a GO service from London to St. Thomas?

Normally I rant that Metrolinx is the opposite of Toronto-centric, given that so many bus routes just skip over Toronto, and then stop only in 905. And the lack of GO stations in Toronto (which they seem to slowly be rectifying).

 

[crs1026]

Big rant, but my point is intercity connections in Wellington/Waterloo are poor, and you could probably get similar perspectives from locals in other towns with limited GO trains.

We are completely on the same page about ML not managing three-car funeral processions, with Waterloo/Guelph being a clear case in point.

But that's because they are a failed, underperforming organization. Nothing to do with Torontocentricity.

- Paul

 

[Sunnyside]

(….)
Big rant, but my point is intercity connections in Wellington/Waterloo are poor, and you could probably get similar perspectives from locals in other towns with limited GO trains.

As someone with localized gripes as you have, but also understanding Metrolinx’s mandate and reasoning for being Toronto-centric…

… We’ve given them the proverbial keys. While integration is good, communities will not pursue big things— that they otherwise may have— if it’s supposed to be Mx’s job. However, Mx then starts prioritizing “more important projects” (they may be, but that’s the flaw of the regional premise!)

Take the Waterloo iON vs. Hamilton LRT. ION was devised locally; cost-efficiency mattered, the Region owns it, and no one was comparing it to 5 other viable GTA LRTs. The Hamilton LRT is the complete opposite and a disaster, despite being so transit supportive.

Our communities aren’t signing up for less transit. When you start treating this region as more integrated than it really is, we get tunnel vision and make tradeoffs that are otherwise irrelevant if there was more than 1 capable entity.

Some will say this centralization is inevitable with an integrated metro-region or reg. governance, but that isn’t yet the GGH, and it won’t be if we work backwards from that ideal. It keeps easy wins, like 4tph from KIT to Guelph, a fantasy. Instead, we hinge any Kitchener service upon years and billions for the 5% of TO-bound trips. Now, that’s a very important project… but it’s a costly ‘perfect’ at the expense of the good. Metrolinx cannot think ‘small’ enough for its own sake.

Edit: I think my post blurs the lines, but I agree with @crs1026 that this is a Metrolinx/Govt problem and not one endemic to the local planning culture…

 

[Sunnyside]

And why aren't county/regions like Wellington/Waterloo not using their own transit agencies to provide such connections?

What next, a GO service from London to St. Thomas?

Normally I rant that Metrolinx is the opposite of Toronto-centric, given that so many bus routes just skip over Toronto, and then stop only in 905. And the lack of GO stations in Toronto (which they seem to slowly be rectifying).

As I say in my post above…. It’s not that Metrolinx doesn’t spend in these areas, or that they should spend more per se. it’s that many easy (sometimes even best) solutions go completely under the radar because we’d rather package work into a super-project (that usually is not targeting the easier, local use cases).

Cities could maybe do these things, but (esp with rail) it’s either explicitly or implicitly Mx jurisdiction. The entire problem is they now hold the keys to a lot of low hanging fruit. Where they don’t, the cities can do whatever they want.

 

[Metroscapes]

they are a failed, underperforming organization. Nothing to do with Torontocentricity.

I agree with @crs1026 that this is a Metrolinx/Govt problem and not one endemic to the local planning culture…

This is 'to-may-to / to-mah-to' in my books. I think we're in agreement.

As I say in my post above…. It’s not that Metrolinx doesn’t spend in these areas, or that they should spend more per se. it’s that many easy (sometimes even best) solutions go completely under the radar because we’d rather package work into a super-project (that usually is not targeting the easier, local use cases).

Cities could maybe do these things, but (esp with rail) it’s either explicitly or implicitly Mx jurisdiction. The entire problem is they now hold the keys to a lot of low hanging fruit. Where they don’t, the cities can do whatever they want.

I had a discussion with a local councillor a couple weeks ago and this is the sentiment they conveyed to me: providing a service that crosses municipal borders is outside of their jurisdiction, in principled and legal / administrative practice, and should be done by the province. In absence of that, if the Province is not making a local intercity service a priority, what are cities left with?

 

[Northern Light]

I had a discussion with a local councillor a couple weeks ago and this is the sentiment they conveyed to me: providing a service that crosses municipal borders is outside of their jurisdiction, in principled and legal / administrative practice, and should be done by the province. In absence of that, if the Province is not making a local intercity service a priority, what are cities left with?

While I'm not unsympathetic to this argument......I will note that the TTC has long supplied service to York Region on contract.

It would certainly be plausible to work out a similar arrangement between Grand River (K-W) and Guelph.

While the province should likely be the provider here, using that as a crutch/excuse doesn't fly.

Even the right-leaning Muskokas managed to stand up limited inter-City bus service that not only cross that region, but also reaches into Orilllia.

 

[Metroscapes]

While I'm not unsympathetic to this argument......I will note that the TTC has long supplied service to York Region on contract.

It would certainly be plausible to work out a similar arrangement between Grand River (K-W) and Guelph.

While the province should likely be the provider here, using that as a crutch/excuse doesn't fly.

Even the right-leaning Muskokas managed to stand up limited inter-City bus service that not only cross that region, but also reaches into Orilllia.

Agreed, but it's enough that a) bureaucrats get nervous and communicate 'We are uncertain, tricky, risk!' and b) without any offers of funding, local politicians don't want to go to bat and budget local tax dollars. And you double it, triple it when it crosses municipal boundaries. Not everyone is as brave as the Muskokas.

That's the barrier that a provincial agency should be breaking through, and I think we're all in agreement on that.

Good convo all.

 

[Sunnyside]

This is 'to-may-to / to-mah-to' in my books. I think we're in agreement.

I would say so too, it’s moreso that we aren’t all calling the same phenomena the same thing…

I had a discussion with a local councillor a couple weeks ago and this is the sentiment they conveyed to me: providing a service that crosses municipal borders is outside of their jurisdiction, in principled and legal / administrative practice, and should be done by the province. In absence of that, if the Province is not making a local intercity service a priority, what are cities left with?

That's the barrier that a provincial agency should be breaking through, and I think we're all in agreement on that.

Good convo all.

Ignore the weird quote. I agree that we agree, lol. Glad to know it’s not just my neck of the woods feeling short-changed.

I think when you say Provincial, you may just mean any higher government, as the Province is supposed to deal with much-larger-scale matters; Metrolinx is merely a puppeteered ‘regional’ body, which is part of what screws it..

I’d prefer Mx develop internal sub-regional divisions, ideally after a total rebuild, which operates as one cohesive org responsible to either the cities or public. NOT a Minister. We are one region, after all; it’s just not remotely that singular.

Anyway, yes- great discussion. I always enjoy when ideas get fleshed out like this. It’s what helps make UT so great.

 

[Metroscapes]

I think when you say Provincial, you may just mean any higher government, as the Province is supposed to deal with much-larger-scale matters; Metrolinx is merely a puppeteered ‘regional’ body, which is part of what screws it..

I’d prefer Mx develop internal sub-regional divisions, ideally after a total rebuild, which operates as one cohesive org responsible to either the cities or public. NOT a Minister. We are one region, after all; it’s just not remotely that singular.

Anyway, yes- great discussion. I always enjoy when ideas get fleshed out like this. It’s what helps make UT so great.

I know why Metrolinx is what it is, though I've long held that a provincial agency should cover the Province. But yeah, there would need to be significant structural changes.

 

[lenaitch]

I’d prefer Mx develop internal sub-regional divisions, ideally after a total rebuild, which operates as one cohesive org responsible to either the cities or public. NOT a Minister. We are one region, after all; it’s just not remotely that singular.

How would you envision that working if not as an agency of the Crown? Nobody wants a for-profit corporation. Some kind of separate not-for-profit corporation owned by the member municipalities? They would have to fund it and, in reality, would lead to a very large board given the size of the area and likely end up with a lot of squabbling. Who secures the debt? An organization like that would tie up a lot of capital.

 

[urbancog]

responsible to either the cities or public. NOT a Minister.

In 2007, when Metrolinx’s geographic remit was just the GTA, its Board consisted of local elected officials. This changed in ~2009 to today’s ineffective bunch of Ministerial toadies. Here’s a snip from the 2007/8 Annual Report

 

[ShonTron]

It was something that Brampton had no representation on the old GO Transit/GTAA board back then. Bus service was awful on the Georgetown corridor, especially on weekends.

 

[crs1026]

The whole reason for creating ML was that the TATOA could never agree on anything because the local pols on the board took parochial win-lose views and mostly promoted transit for their own jurisdiction.

I'm not seeing any of the provincial governments who have overseen ML doing much to broker an evenhanded integration of transit. They have all simply created and pushed their own self-serving projects.

I'm not in favour of any provincial monolith (self disclosure - I worked at the old Ontario Hydro before it was broken up) but there has to be some sort of silo-busting so that individual transit properties work better with each other.

For regional and provincial needs, a single bus/regional rail plan similar to Let's Move is needed. But I'm not so sure that Metrolinx ought to run it all.

- Paul