GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Sunnyside]

I do agree that the city really needs to advocate for what they want, and it seems the city has never been very interested in a subway because Mississauga likes to see itself as separate from Toronto. And of course McCallion didn’t want the city to carry any debt to fund a subway.

They have been (slightly) more vocal in pushing better GO service, but we all know how effective that has been in achieving better Milton service.

In this regard, a small desire for transit is not enough.

Some cities are blessed to be along Metrolinx-owned lines, including parts of Mississauga. So it’s easy for places like Pickering or Oakville to like transit when the transit is cheaper- or free. But that is not the status quo, and especially not how subways get built in practice.

By contrast, to achieve either a subway or an electric expanded Milton Line requires a more significant desire and push than we have seen. But it’s not an impossible amount, as YR shows. It’s just part and parcel of being a bigger city.

The province didn’t pay for the original Yonge subway, either!

 

[DirectionNorth]

Those curves alone are probably a 20-30 mph max curve for trains. Would probably end up adding like 8-15 minutes on the travel time alone

This is just an illustration. You can get higher speeds by abandoning Cooksville GO and tunnelling under more properties, but money.

Even at 15 minutes, that's a time savings worth it to create a connection to the Mississauga Transitway, GO buses from Square One, MiWay at MCCT, and MCC itself. I don't think this will reach a 15 minute detour, that's a 25-ish minute travel time - that's riding the YUS from St. George to Eglinton through Union. 5 minutes sounds about right.

 

[Sunnyside]

This is just an illustration. You can get higher speeds by abandoning Cooksville GO and tunnelling under more properties, but money.

Even at 15 minutes, that's a time savings worth it to create a connection to the Mississauga Transitway, GO buses from Square One, MiWay at MCCT, and MCC itself. I don't think this will reach a 15 minute detour, that's a 25-ish minute travel time - that's riding the YUS from St. George to Eglinton through Union . 5 minutes sounds about right.

Agreed, MCC is too big a node to miss. With the opportunity to use the 403 ROW it starts to become really nice. Build it for smaller trains and then it’ll probably pencil out.

 

[afransen]

Those curves alone are probably a 20-30 mph max curve for trains. Would probably end up adding like 8-15 minutes on the travel time alone

It would be about 6.4km vs 5.4km. For one additional km to add 8 minutes, that average speed on that segment would need to drop pretty drastically. Cooksville to Erindale is currently scheduled at about 6 minutes, or ~55kph average. For 6.4km to take 8 minutes longer would average 27kph. 15 minutes longer would be 18 kph.

I think this kind of investment for Milton would likely see deployment of EMU rolling stock that could handle tunnels and tighter turns a bit better.

 

[smallspy]

I think this kind of investment for Milton would likely see deployment of EMU rolling stock that could handle tunnels and tighter turns a bit better.

What makes you think that EMUs can handle tighter turns than regular rolling stock?

Dan

 

[Sunnyside]

What makes you think that EMUs can handle tighter turns than regular rolling stock?

Dan

I think the implication is they could deccelerate more quickly approaching the curves, and accelerate more quickly out of them. Which if we’re comparing to a diesel OR electric loco, is true. That’s ignoring whether they stop at Cooksville GO and/or an MCC station, in which case the train speed is already being brought down and curves are perhaps more negligible.

In any case, is the time penalty really the biggest concern with an MCC Diversion? The benefit of a direct connection is pretty big.

 

[smallspy]

I think the implication is they could deccelerate more quickly approaching the curves, and accelerate more quickly out of them. Which if we’re comparing to a diesel OR electric loco, is true. That’s ignoring whether they stop at Cooksville GO and/or an MCC station, in which case the train speed is already being brought down and curves are perhaps more negligible.

Perhaps, but that's certainly not how the original post read to me.

And in fairness, that's also a function of the curve/track geometry - not just the equipment used.

In any case, is the time penalty really the biggest concern with an MCC Diversion? The benefit of a direct connection is pretty big.

The benefit is quite high, I agree.

But does it outweigh the cost, which will also be quite high?

Dan

 

[sixrings]

Perhaps, but that's certainly not how the original post read to me.

And in fairness, that's also a function of the curve/track geometry - not just the equipment used.


The benefit is quite high, I agree.

But does it outweigh the cost, which will also be quite high?

Dan

every cost too high here.

 

[Sunnyside]

every cost too high here.

It really is a crisis, and I don’t know how we can get around it. It’s not just planning costs; it’s the infrastructure we design, AND the amount we pay for that overdesigned infrastructure on top of it.

But, In the grand scheme of things, this sort of project should be cheap relative to others if designed properly.

This might be an instance where rail along the 403/407 Transitway may be worthy as a higher priority if the costs are much better there- saves the tunnel for after more RT gets to MCC, rather than precluding it.

 

[sixrings]

Why are we talking about tunneling a GO line? Shouldn't we be talking about building a new central Mississauga Transitway segment from the 403 down into the existing Erindale GO? You get your direct interchange, and open up a rapid transit corridor along Burnhamthorpe to Square One. It'd be a net improvement without unnecessary reconstruction.

I touched on this briefly on my Mississauga Transitway video.

I finally looked at your map. I dont know why we wouldn't encourage building as the crow flies. I understand the cost but you're advocating for some seriously long commutes if a person is trying to get anywhere downtown toronto. When I ask for a subway to Square one I am met with no one wants to be on a subway that long. Well they're not going to like the idea about being on a bus. To a LRT to a subway. It maybe cheaper but its not time efficient and it won't get people out of their cars for the trips I am talking about.

I get it that what I am asking for is going to cost a lot. Whether a rerouted GO train or a subway. However it isn't as if Mississauga is suddenly going to stop growing. Unless we are talking about a future where everyone works from home we will get to the point this has to be built. And if you think it is expensive today then wait 10 years.

 

[nfitz]

What makes you think that EMUs can handle tighter turns than regular rolling stock?

They wouldn't of course (and tunnels???). But they would accelerate faster after they've slowed down.

 

[Metroscapes]

I finally looked at your map. I dont know why we wouldn't encourage building as the crow flies. I understand the cost but you're advocating for some seriously long commutes if a person is trying to get anywhere downtown toronto. When I ask for a subway to Square one I am met with no one wants to be on a subway that long. Well they're not going to like the idea about being on a bus. To a LRT to a subway. It maybe cheaper but its not time efficient and it won't get people out of their cars for the trips I am talking about.

I get it that what I am asking for is going to cost a lot. Whether a rerouted GO train or a subway. However it isn't as if Mississauga is suddenly going to stop growing. Unless we are talking about a future where everyone works from home we will get to the point this has to be built. And if you think it is expensive today then wait 10 years.

I thought I was advocating for a more direct busway transfer between 407 GO / other Miway buses and the GO line, which would make a faster commute than any transfers at Square One. When did subways come up? Unless you're talking about the GO tunnel towards Square One, which I'm basically saying could be avoided with a better (and cheaper) busway connection, and still achieve the same objective.

My proposal is also in the context of producing a co-benefit for a trail, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[sixrings]

I thought I was advocating for a more direct busway transfer between 407 GO / other Miway buses and the GO line, which would make a faster commute than any transfers at Square One. When did subways come up? Unless you're talking about the GO tunnel towards Square One, which I'm basically saying could be avoided with a better (and cheaper) busway connection, and still achieve the same objective.

My proposal is also in the context of producing a co-benefit for a trail, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

What you’re suggesting is nice additional transit. But the basic thrust of the conversation is how to connect MCC to Toronto in a more direct way to move people faster. Your idea might be supplementary but it isn’t a solution to that challenge.

 

[nfitz]

What you’re suggesting is nice additional transit. But the basic thrust of the conversation is how to connect MCC to Toronto in a more direct way to move people faster. Your idea might be supplementary but it isn’t a solution to that challenge.

The GO tunnel from the Milton line to MCC (as a spur) was part of one of the province's Transportation Plans in the post-25 year period (about 20 years ago )

 

[Dan416]

I'm curious if they can design a diversion to MCC while maintaining Cooksville GO. But with the complication of trying to divert Milton, that's why I think a subway might be easier/more feasible. But it would require a detailed analysis and of course both options would run into cost overruns, as all projects in the GTA now do.