GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is waay off topic and maybe belongs elsewhere, but I've always thought cost/return ratios are almost fraudulent. We put a magic number in, and get a magic number out. If we double the value of a minute saved (for example), the BCR changes, but nobody's actually saved any more time. Or if we cut in half the cost of carbon, the same project doesn't emit more, but the BCR magics differently. Or jobs created, etc, etc. In this way, it's almost a "societal value" rather than "business case" analysis.

Ridership is what determines the value of a transit project. Higher ridership means the project is (relatively speaking) more useful compared to other options, and Option 1 is at $82,000/rider while Option 4 is $133,000/rider. Also, $3.5 billion for 9 km of "mostly at-grade" project is completely nuts (it would be expensive even for a 100% underground).

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Going back to Mississauga, slightly more on topic, while I agree that Milton GO isn't particularly effective for local trips, in the off-peak, local transit would not be competitive for, say, Dixie to Erin Mills. Milton off-peak would not only connect MCC to central Toronto with a better all day link than "bus to Eglinton LRT to the TTC-operated subway" or "25 minutes on HuLRT to catch LSW" but also create an express option across Mississauga itself. It's not a #1 priority project, but Milton Expansion+MCC tunnel should explored for the 2030s transit list.

I think the 401 wouldn't be as awful if people could take the trip to Toronto from Milton off-peak without issue. When I was in Oakville, I didn't have a car because of the Oakville Transit and hourly (and then half-hourly) trains.

 

[Sunnyside]

There is not a single person currently alive who will still be alive when/if the relief Line reaches Burlington or Oshawa, so I think this is a lagely moot discussion.

I wouldn’t be calling it “the relief line” firstly, and secondly I do think it’ll be around for the younger people here. If not from Burlington to Oshawa, then at the bare minimum MCC-Markham. It would be fully at grade in a protected alignment, so it’s not a subway at all. And, there are frankly a finite number of other projects that precede it, even if that lineup seems long. Much of our major works are already on the 1-2 decade horizon.

Something like this has been proposed for decades, and GO buses will eventually be so frequent that a rail replacement makes sense anyhow. They already run a bus every 10 minutes on the central 407 most of the time; nevermind the network effects of GO Expansion.

Since this has been discussed before and it’s somewhat off-topic, I’ll leave it at “we’ll get it when we get it”— but that it’s perhaps worth bringing the central section into the discussion fold sooner rather than later.

 

[sixrings]

I wouldn’t be calling it “the relief line” firstly, and secondly I do think it’ll be around for the younger people here. If not from Burlington to Oshawa, then at the bare minimum MCC-Markham. It would be fully at grade in a protected alignment, so it’s not a subway at all. And, there are frankly a finite number of other projects that precede it, even if that lineup seems long. Much of our major works are already on the 1-2 decade horizon.

Something like this has been proposed for decades, and GO buses will eventually be so frequent that a rail replacement makes sense anyhow. They already run a bus every 10 minutes on the central 407 most of the time; nevermind the network effects of GO Expansion.

Since this has been discussed before and it’s somewhat off-topic, I’ll leave it at “we’ll get it when we get it”— but that it’s perhaps worth bringing the central section into the discussion fold sooner rather than later.

See I don’t think it’s a small list in front of it. Finch will want to be extended to at least Yonge. Once there it will want to be extended to Scarborough. Sheppard is begging to get to Downsview. But also to Scarborough town centre. There’s Eglinton East that needs to happen. Something has to happen on jane. Ontario line West will be a thing. And then waterfront lrt east and west. If you’re asking the people of Mississauga who use this line to wait for all those projects to be complete. That’s an extremely hard pill to swallow.

Whose placing bets the PCs manage to buy back the 407 or announce the Sheppard extension before they can figure out the impossible task of buying this freight corridor.

 

[Dan416]

See I don’t think it’s a small list in front of it. Finch will want to be extended to at least Yonge. Once there it will want to be extended to Scarborough. Sheppard is begging to get to Downsview. But also to Scarborough town centre. There’s Eglinton East that needs to happen. Something has to happen on jane. Ontario line West will be a thing. And then waterfront lrt east and west. If you’re asking the people of Mississauga who use this line to wait for all those projects to be complete. That’s an extremely hard pill to swallow.

Whose placing bets the PCs manage to buy back the 407 or announce the Sheppard extension before they can figure out the impossible task of buying this freight corridor.

I feel like the Sheppard extension will definitely be the next project to be announced, long before any action on the Milton Line. And I can't complain about Sheppard getting extended, since I feel like it was shortchanged by Mike Harris when they cut it, and this extension would at least allow the Sheppard line to have some use.

But it's really sad when the Milton line's mid-day service to Erindale was so distant in the past, and no news of any future.

 

[sixrings]

I feel like the Sheppard extension will definitely be the next project to be announced, long before any action on the Milton Line. And I can't complain about Sheppard getting extended, since I feel like it was shortchanged by Mike Harris when they cut it, and this extension would at least allow the Sheppard line to have some use.

But it's really sad when the Milton line's mid-day service to Erindale was so distant in the past, and no news of any future.

Considering how long it takes to build anything to hear maybe after these projects we can start the planning is laughable. That’s insane. We’re building the density. 70-85 floor buildings. Can we get some reward.

 

[nfitz]

Or build LRT's where a subway would have been preferable. Such as Eglinton.

There's no where near the demand East of the DVP to support subway.

 

[Metroscapes]

Does your video have a map of your proposal or am I going to waste ten minutes of my life.

Yes it has a map, you can skip to 8:32.

 

[canarob]

There's no where near the demand East of the DVP to support subway.

I do wonder how demand will look once the tens of thousands of new units along the corridor are built though. It'll be many times more dense than Line 2 east of the DVP.

 

[sixrings]

I do wonder how demand will look once the tens of thousands of new units along the corridor are built though. It'll be many times more dense that Line 2 east of the DVP.

Great so now we’re building based on potential growth. Ok how about an additional 37 buildings at MCC with 18000 units. Perhaps that place could use some better connection to Toronto.

Oxford Properties Launches 'Canada's Largest Development in History' at SquareOne in Mississauga | UrbanToronto

Oxford Properties has announced a massive redevelopment of the underused lands around Square One Shopping Centre in Mississauga, with 18 million square feet of office, residential, and retail on its way, with the first phase launching shortly with partner The Daniels Corporation.

urbantoronto.ca

 

[nfitz]

I do wonder how demand will look once the tens of thousands of new units along the corridor are built though. It'll be many times more dense that Line 2 east of the DVP.

That's interesting. I guess by building a surface system with frequent stops, then you get more densification than just sticking stops every kilometre or two.

 

[afransen]

That's interesting. I guess by building a surface system with frequent stops, then you get more densification than just sticking stops every kilometre or two.

That surface system is probably more useful as a bus, or if demand is very high, LRT. Buses can give very local stopping patterns. LRT is a compromise between bus and metro/subway.

 

[nfitz]

That surface system is probably more useful as a bus, or if demand is very high, LRT. Buses can give very local stopping patterns. LRT is a compromise between bus and metro/subway.

And subway is a compromise between GO Trains and buses.

If one is going to Metro or Loblaws!

 

[Sunnyside]

Great so now we’re building based on potential growth. Ok how about an additional 37 buildings at MCC with 18000 units. Perhaps that place could use some better connection to Toronto.

Oxford Properties Launches 'Canada's Largest Development in History' at SquareOne in Mississauga | UrbanToronto

Oxford Properties has announced a massive redevelopment of the underused lands around Square One Shopping Centre in Mississauga, with 18 million square feet of office, residential, and retail on its way, with the first phase launching shortly with partner The Daniels Corporation.

urbantoronto.ca

At a certain point, your City Council and the Planning Dept need to actually advocate for a subway if they want one. There is and has been money for rail transit here. MCC’s density contributed to the LRT, but it’s a “minimum viable solution” in the absence of any alternatives suggested by the City.

If your never offering formal input, your going to get what you get and you can’t get upset. The province is not obligated to overbuild without reason. And please don’t cite TYSSE or YNSE.

Because of your clear passion for this I implore you to email the Mayor, councillors and city planners. Toss in Metrolinx too.

…And yes, the eastern section of Eglinton could have been a subway, but we will make do. Toronto has yet to achieve anything less than exemplary per-km subway ridership, even on Line 4. These circular debates are tiring.

 

[Dan416]

I do agree that the city really needs to advocate for what they want, and it seems the city has never been very interested in a subway because Mississauga likes to see itself as separate from Toronto. And of course McCallion didn’t want the city to carry any debt to fund a subway.

They have been (slightly) more vocal in pushing better GO service, but we all know how effective that has been in achieving better Milton service.

 

[Krypto98]

A Milton GO realignment, tunnelling to reach MCC and using the 403 Transitway corridor at-grade, should be doable for net <$1 billion, maybe even less than $700 million, assuming no issues with easements (I know that's partly responsible for MTL's Anjou Extension blowouts). Though we're moving into semi-fantasy map territory.

Knowing Metrolinx, it'd probably get escalated to $4 billion.
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Those curves alone are probably a 20-30 mph max curve for trains. Would probably end up adding like 8-15 minutes on the travel time alone