GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[sixrings]

I think the problem is not that mississaugans hear “I hate the Milton line” it’s that we feel like what that equates to is it’s not worth whatever dollar figure it is to serve the sixth biggest city in Canada by population. It’s double frustrating when we see wasted money going to other projects and then are told our project costs to much or we need to wait longer.

Largest Cities in Canada by Population

Since the Second World War, Canadians have become increasingly urban, living primarily in cities. In an attempt to keep housing affordable, local governments ha...

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Also ottawa may have a million people but that’s within 2800 sq km. While Mississaugas 800k is within 288 sq Kms.

 

[Sunnyside]

I would even take this one step further

Me: "Metrolinx and the Province do not have the funding or the project bandwidth to attack the Milton line at this time"

Them: "So you hate the Milton line?!"

Me: "No, but it's a particularly big project, and it needs a full solution (ie two dedicated tracks for GO, alongside CP's tracks) and that's more than we can pile on ML's plate at this time when RER and various subway/LRT projects are not yet completed, and by the way there are reasons why those projects had to go first"

Them: "So you hate the Milton line?!"

- Paul

This is a much better framing. It’s not that the project isn’t worth tackling, or even that it’s less worthy than other projects being built right now… (which is what I tried to explain in my posts) it’s just too big to add to our collective plate. And that is, in a very strong sense, extremely significant.

Full Expansion is more similar in scope to the Ontario Line than GO Expansion, which was noticeably pushed at the expense of other projects. Now, is it necessary? Yes. Is it worth prioritizing ahead of others? Likely yes too. BUT—we cannot confuse rapid political action for excess work capacity. Metrolinx’s is at the limit, and all other active projects are affected directly (GO Exp, funded projs) or indirectly (the LRTs, SSE, YNSE) from having time and energy diverted to something of this size.

The under-discussed consequence of trying to force things through is that we’ll pay significantly more to get contractors to A) take our work instead of something else’s’, and/or; B) find the additional labour needed to actually do that. And they don’t play fair on pricing, as we all know.

The Milton Line’s time will come. Perhaps planning work can start if it hasn’t already. But shovels will need to wait a while

 

[crs1026]

Wouldn't upgrading Milton cost much less than subway? The only downside is that Milton doesn't quite reach MCC.

I don't profess any specific knowledge, but I would speculate that Milton and a subway ate both an order of magnitude beyond surface LRT or BRT, so the business case would be similar.

And extending Line 2 is not really fit for purpose to serve Mississauga. I'm not sure street-running LRT is warranted in much of Mississauga, either. It doesn't serve a rapid transit function to cover large distances quickly. Having Lakeshore and Milton (and eventually Line 5 extension along the transitway) as backbones with BRT feeding it seems like a good start. I can't see $1B/km subway barely making it to MCC being the best use of funds to serve Mississauga as a whole.

I have trouble figuring how any of the station pairs along the Milton line west of Kipling serve a useful role in a Mississauga centric transit network.....without an investment in feeder lines. LRT with sensible stop spacing and traffic signal priority might be fast enough.

The idea of diverting the line to MCC is interesting..... but hey, that's building a subway, and not the best subway we can build. If the Ontario Line spec actually works, perhaps it would suit a Mississauga subway, and be cheaper than a buried GO tunnel.

To my mind, trying to use the GO line for two functions, ie heavy rail/limited stop to reach Kipling and Union, as well as more intensive transit within the city, will do neither well.

We are all frustrated with what could have been done better and sooner, and how money flows to plainly dumb ideas instead of good ones. Milton belongs on the list, but it might have had to wait all the same.

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

I don't profess any specific knowledge, but I would speculate that Milton and a subway ate both an order of magnitude beyond surface LRT or BRT, so the business case would be similar.

I have trouble figuring how any of the station pairs along the Milton line west of Kipling serve a useful role in a Mississauga centric transit network.....without an investment in feeder lines. LRT with sensible stop spacing and traffic signal priority might be fast enough.

The idea of diverting the line to MCC is interesting..... but hey, that's building a subway, and not the best subway we can build. If the Ontario Line spec actually works, perhaps it would suit a Mississauga subway, and be cheaper than a buried GO tunnel.

To my mind, trying to use the GO line for two functions, ie heavy rail/limited stop to reach Kipling and Union, as well as more intensive transit within the city, will do neither well.

We are all frustrated with what could have been done better and sooner, and how money flows to plainly dumb ideas instead of good ones. Milton belongs on the list, but it might have had to wait all the same.

- Paul

well I’m not the biggest fan of the term “business case.” The business case should have recognized that the Vaughan extension should have been above ground. The Eglinton west at surface. The Rt conversion an LRT and the Ontario line a full blown subway. But depending who’s in charge these “business case” magically change to whatever political agenda gets the most votes. Suddenly the Milton line is where we draw the line in the sand and say no more. We aren’t wasting another dime.

When Sheppard announces their next multibillion dollar extension that will cost about the same as whatever is needed out here I don’t know how people exp cut Mississauga to be patient and understand the business case about it.

 

[ARG1]

I don't profess any specific knowledge, but I would speculate that Milton and a subway ate both an order of magnitude beyond surface LRT or BRT, so the business case would be similar.

well I’m not the biggest fan of the term “business case.” The business case should have recognized that the Vaughan extension should have been above ground. The Eglinton west at surface. The Rt conversion an LRT and the Ontario line a full blown subway. But depending who’s in charge these “business case” magically change to whatever political agenda gets the most votes. Suddenly the Milton line is where we draw the line in the sand and say no more. We aren’t wasting another dime.

When Sheppard announces their next multibillion dollar extension that will cost about the same as whatever is needed out here I don’t know how people exp cut Mississauga to be patient and understand the business case about it.

The business case is really only there to tell the public and the people in charge whether the project and its studied alignments make sense to be built in terms of economic and social benefits given its expenses - along the lines of a given set of alignments and constraints. It doesn't exist to propose engineering decisions to cut costs, unless those options were initially provided. So, unless the business case was studied with a surface alignment for the TYSSE, it wasn't going to propose a surface alignment option (which iirc the reason why the TYSSE was as deep as it was was because York University endlessly moaned about Vibrations in the lecture halls).

 

[sixrings]

The business case is really only there to tell the public and the people in charge whether the project and its studied alignments make sense to be built in terms of economic and social benefits given its expenses - along the lines of a given set of alignments and constraints.

well it didn’t make sense to build Vaughan above ground or Eglinton west underground and it didn’t make sense not to convert the Rt to lrt and to not build the Ontario line using actual subways.

 

[nfitz]

well it didn’t make sense to build Vaughan above ground or Eglinton west underground and it didn’t make sense not to convert the Rt to lrt and to not build the Ontario line using actual subways.

The central section of the Ontario line downtown as subway may have made sense, but don't forget the plans for it are epic, from Burlington to Oshawa - and all that makes more sense overground.

 

[sixrings]

UTM, ouch. Not a great walk to Dundas either. I wonder if it be profitable to sell it for

The central section of the Ontario line downtown as subway may have made sense, but don't forget the plans for it are epic, from Burlington to Oshawa - and all that makes more sense overground.

If it stretched out that far wouldn’t you need more capacity on the trains?

 

[ARG1]

well it didn’t make sense to build Vaughan above ground or Eglinton west underground and it didn’t make sense not to convert the Rt to lrt and to not build the Ontario line using actual subways.

Is that a fact or your opinion? At least for Eglinton West, the IBC very much showed that Option 4 (the one we're building) had the highest Benefit-Cost Ratio. Granted, the BCR for almost all of these is abysmal and there is a very clear argument that perhaps we shouldn't be building anything here, but regardless - your opinion on value isn't exactly relevant to anyone.

 

[sixrings]

Is that a fact or your opinion? At least for Eglinton West, the IBC very much showed that Option 4 (the one we're building) had the highest Benefit-Cost Ratio. Granted, the BCR for almost all of these is abysmal and there is a very clear argument that perhaps we shouldn't be building anything here, but regardless - your opinion on value isn't exactly relevant to anyone.

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It’s not a matter of my opinion. They’ve gone back and forth a number of times depending who was in charge. If it was so cut and dry plans wouldn’t be made scrapped remade scrapped remade again.

I think you’re ignoring this part or minimizing its impacts under option 1 (Best option for minimal construction progress delays and cost overrun risks) if we only have so much funds then there’s a good reason this should have been considered.

Soon I’m going to hear how there’s a business case for an underground highway under the 401.

 

[Sunnyside]

If it stretched out that far wouldn’t you need more capacity on the trains?

It would be a unique line, so probably not. At least the peripheral service would be from Burlington to Oshawa via the 407->403->Pearson->427n-> 407, not touching the proposed 427s and RL Don Mills alignments. It’s essentially just rehashing GO ALRT as an upgrading of the GO Bus trunk to rail in a sense. Pretty good idea as it goes.

Though it’s worth questioning if the Ontario Line would have enough capacity to accommodate a full ‘U’ from Leslie/407 to Pearson via the 427 south (I don’t really buy that this will be implemented as a loop service- Doug just hasn’t decided how it’ll get to Kipling from Exhibition!).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

But then if people suggest a subway to MCC, they go "but what about the Milton Line, it's good enough?". Whereas York Region gets 2 subways and RER with a smaller population.

This is the fault of Mississauga City Council and Hazel.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is a much better framing. It’s not that the project isn’t worth tackling, or even that it’s less worthy than other projects being built right now… (which is what I tried to explain in my posts) it’s just too big to add to our collective plate. And that is, in a very strong sense, extremely significant.

Full Expansion is more similar in scope to the Ontario Line than GO Expansion, which was noticeably pushed at the expense of other projects. Now, is it necessary? Yes. Is it worth prioritizing ahead of others? Likely yes too. BUT—we cannot confuse rapid political action for excess work capacity. Metrolinx’s is at the limit, and all other active projects are affected directly (GO Exp, funded projs) or indirectly (the LRTs, SSE, YNSE) from having time and energy diverted to something of this size.

The under-discussed consequence of trying to force things through is that we’ll pay significantly more to get contractors to A) take our work instead of something else’s’, and/or; B) find the additional labour needed to actually do that. And they don’t play fair on pricing, as we all know.

The Milton Line’s time will come. Perhaps planning work can start if it hasn’t already. But shovels will need to wait a while

Sure, I agree with this. But again, it's time to start finishing the projects we have now. Something needs to give here.

 

[T3G]

It would be a unique line, so probably not. At least the peripheral service would be from Burlington to Oshawa via the 407->403->Pearson->427n-> 407, not touching the proposed 427s and RL Don Mills alignments. It’s essentially just rehashing GO ALRT as an upgrading of the GO Bus trunk to rail in a sense. Pretty good idea as it goes.

Though it’s worth questioning if the Ontario Line would have enough capacity to accommodate a full ‘U’ from Leslie/407 to Pearson via the 427 south (I don’t really buy that this will be implemented as a loop service- Doug just hasn’t decided how it’ll get to Kipling from Exhibition!).

There is not a single person currently alive who will still be alive when/if the relief Line reaches Burlington or Oshawa, so I think this is a lagely moot discussion.

 

[sixrings]

This is the fault of Mississauga City Council and Hazel.

Hazel hasn’t been mayor for a decade.