robmausser
Senior Member
Even considering this is one of the most densely populated areas in Canada, it still pales in comparison to the density of the Netherlands, especially the places up north where all those white abandoned lines are.
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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)
- Thread starter drum118
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Northern Light
Superstar
I've seen variations of this before, but quite like yours for its crisp clarity. Excellent work!
For passenger or freight, which of these segments, if any, offer a compelling case for reactivation?
ShonTron
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You’re even missing several abandoned lines in Southwestern Ontario.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
the craziest story of railway abandonment in Ontario to me is still Lindsay - you can see from that map how much of a rail hub it used to be, yet doesn’t have a single active rail line today.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
They could start by trimming the trees on platform 1 so that they dont scratch the windows. Also the 5mph speed restriction entering the station doesn't help schedule times.
crs1026
Superstar
My vote - none of them, right now. That map is interesting historically, but we should not plan the infrastructure on the basis of nostalgia.
However, I would argue that land should be set aside in Municipal and provincial plans for rail corridors.
How is it that we can examine municipal zoning maps and spot any number of planned road and 400-series highway corridors, but absolutely no thought is given to rail corridors? How is it that the MTO even assembles land for highways when iit may be decades until they are built? Or airports.....we've held land in Pickering for what, 50 years now....
A HSR route should be set on paper, even if it isn't about to be built. The Milton-Durham freight bypass should be roughed in - it is inevitable. I'm not a fan of restoring the Ottawa Valley lines, but the old Midland-Lindsay-Belleville lines functioned as a grain route to the east in the years before the Seaway..... at some point the railways may see value in keeping Montreal bound traffic away from the GTA..
A business case may still exist for service to Grey-Bruce agriculture...... call it GEXR North,. If GEXR and OSR can find agricultural customers in their territory then a rail line further north might also. The original proposal for retaining the CN/CP Owen Sound network was doomed by other factors, but they did identify solid agricultural customers up that way.
I doubt that the old bridge routes between Buffalo and Detroit matter any more, so I can't see them returning. However.....if you really want to stir the pot....consider a new crossing from the US at either Buffalo or along the St Clair river. If you think the railways scream about interswitching now, add a new railway between the US and southern Ontario. CN/CP's control of tunnels and bridges is all about protection against third-railway competition. It's a hypothetical, but if I were a billionaire with money to invest, a Norm Ullman rail tunnel from Detroit would be a game changer for, say, auto industry traffic..
A great opportunity for government-built and owned infrastructure with contracted operations, such as Guelph Waterloo and others are doing today, thin edge of the wedge towards a different model for mainline railway ownership.
- Paul
Northern Light
Superstar
I agree, I was more thinking of routes or redundancies for which people have advocated in the past where one of these, were the ROW in tact, might prove useful.
Sometimes, something no longer appears useful in the context of a given time, but decades later, new circumstances emerge that might make that conceit worth revisiting.
Just to throw one example out, we've discussed in the past a direct rail connection from Ptbo down to the Oshawa area, given the frequent GO bus traffic between those two points.
I think most of the discussion centred on the 35/115 highway corridor used by buses.
But I noted from @reaperexpress 's post the old Whitby, Port Perry and Lindsay railway which ran roughly in line with Brock Road in Whitby for the first leg, was relatively straight and ultimately met up with the CP Havelock.
That did have me looking, but it appears that corridor has been lost to time as the southern legs were pulled up as early as the late 30s (90 years ago).
But that was the idea I had in mind, not to ressurect a corridor for nostalgia, but because we might be able to find current utility in it at lower cost that a new build.
Completely agree. I advocated to the MTO for the 413 corridor to be a rail corridor, and to be connected to both the CP and CN mainlines, allowing any traffic to/from the south-west to route that way more efficiently, and it could also support a passenger service as the market dictated.
Failing that, I argued such a corridor (rail) should be included with the highway.
An interesting idea, but how would you route the connection deeper into Ontario to serve new/existing plants?
Who are the major U.S. Carriers w/assets there? CSX and Norfolk Southern?
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enter username
Active Member
Krypto98
Active Member
Only only one I can think of that could be useful was the Newmarket sub between Allandale and Washago and the section between North bay and capreol, however considering the amount of condos and buildings on the ROW in Barrie its safe to assume this will never happen...
crs1026
Superstar
Beyond any doubt - if the remnants of an old line are still there, use them, and capitalise on any of the previous grading or bridgework that may still meet standards.
However, that does not necessarily mean that those old lines are optimal in placement any more. Or, that the old abutments and such will hold up.
As I said in another thread, imagine the envy that Van Horne must feel watching today's TBM technology from up there in the beyond. New construction methods may make it possible and cheaper to cross a swamp or drill through high ground that the original builders had to divert around. HFR is a good example - in the end, we may see lots of the old Havelock ROW bypassed, while sticking generally to the old route.
I'm taking a conservative view and assuming that any new line will effectively be new build, even if some of it isn't.
I'm probably dreaming, because the regulatory hurdles to connect a new border crossing to southern Ontario industry would be close to insurmountable (especially with CN/CP helping to obstruct).
But - one could be looking at that map of old railway lines to see if any could be reactivated (again, recognizing that CN/CP have strategically retained ownership of bits to block just that idea)(and, assuming that the interswitching rules may benefit the new start).
I think there might have to be some very strategic discussions with suppliers about where their new facilities will be located, and how that could come together. And transload points might be found that remove the need to lay new tracks all the way to, say, St Thomas.
Yes, and they may be much more able to find workable operating patterns that match highway velocity across the border if they are managing the whole route from Southern Ontario to wherever. Right now, moving material or finished autos from a plant in Ontario to a plant in Ohio is not a market that rail can easily compete in, but it might if one railway were planning the cross-border logistics.
- Paul
robmausser
Senior Member
You can see along the water east of Toronto, a white abandoned line (or in the 1997 maps, a third red line) that runs almost along/parallel to the existing CP/CN track to Montreal. That is an abandoned ROW that would mean HSR/HFR would have been easy peasy along the existing VIA route. I believe it is the old Canada Northern railway line.
Unfortunately, all of it has been overbuilt with housing and properties. Its completely abandoned. I mean, if it had existed I believe VIA would obviously have operated along it in a dedicated ROW for decades, let alone HSR.
robmausser
Senior Member
Heres a map of the above mentioned rail line. It actually went to Ottawa.
en.wikipedia.org
Also of note: It would have been a perfect ROW for the Scarborough Subway to run at grade or in a trench to STC and then Malvern town centre.
Canadian Northern Railway - Wikipedia
Also of note: It would have been a perfect ROW for the Scarborough Subway to run at grade or in a trench to STC and then Malvern town centre.
Northern Light
Superstar
You know, you got me curious...........
The ROW is built over in spots (particularly in Toronto), but a good chunk of it isn't built on east of the City.
But....its not quite in shape to relay the track, LOL
Welcome to the Canadian Northern RoW just north of Whitby:
That's looking east, at about 4345 Garrard Rd.
Aerial view:
Just east of here, in Oshawa part of it are fully lost, but not that much, really.
Here it is again north of Bomanville, I've drawn a white line just below it:
Northern Light
Superstar
As an aside, sometimes it can difficult to track old ROWs if they were abandoned long ago enough or built over, even if you have an old route map.
I found a great little helper.
This map shows the site of former train stations, and overlays them on a contemporary map. When you see stations lining up, you can see the old ROW.
I found a great little helper.
This map shows the site of former train stations, and overlays them on a contemporary map. When you see stations lining up, you can see the old ROW.
robmausser
Senior Member
yes, I believe its now at the point you are basically just re-expropriating land. Might as well just build anywhere at that point and not follow the old ROW. The tragedy began in the 1970s, and could have been saved then, but its too late now.