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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

just east of the creek said:
The GO/VIA relationship in Southern Ontario seems to be troubled with overlapping consumer needs.

Could it make sense for VIA in Southern Ontario to be replaced by two GO Servces - the existing commuter rail/bus services revised to operate from Hamilton, from K/W, from Bolton (one day). from Newmarket, from Stouffville, and from Oshawa. (Orangeville could/should be added at some point in the future) This service is going through a continuing program of improvement and these programs would continue and be accelerated.

And then layer on a GO Regional Service. Routes from Niagara Falls/St Catherine's/Stoney Creek through a Hamilton hub (ideally),and then express into Union. From Windsor (or Sarnia), London, Brantford through Hamilton (Ideally) and then express into Union. From Barrie/Bradford. From Peterbourgh. And from Coburg/Port Hope.

Go bus services to add to the linkages and provide other linkages between nodes.

Obviously track improvements and additional track to raise speed levels to acceptable levels are a must and to also allow for freight operations that could be enhanced as well. Buried in this one line reference is a huge amount of work to be done on a working agreement for track in Sothern Ontario between all the rail parties. Or, do you create a third party Southern Ontario Rail Consortium to purchase the existing rail infrastructure, and then build and maintain rail and signaling infrastructure in this operational area.

Separate from all of the rail infrastructure, would be the work on Stations and bus connections with GO busses and local transit that would be needed

And then differences in equipment between the existing GO fleet and a new regional fleet. Even allowing for future power source changes (electric or hydrogen), the passenger cars themselves would vary to cater to the longer distances, and other requirements for increased speed, luggage space, onboard bike storage etc.

VIA in southern Ontario would be limited to improved international services through Niagara Falls and Windsor (hopefully), and a higher speed, higher frequency network east to Montreal and Ottawa. Plus the Canadian (not to be overlooked and should be route improved as well to add to the tourist component of that train).

If we are going to look at integrated transit, I think we should look at more then just integrated fare structures and transit services within the GTA. The GTA is effectively expanding, and the GO system should be expanding in different ways to capture that ridership. VIA is not really a commuter service, and it should probably not be one.

There is a finite limit to the amount of highway building and expansion that is going to take place. But there is a great deal of growth that can take place in rapid rail based transit.
Click to expand...

I agree w/GO having a Hamilton Hub (and a K-W one).

I don't really think we need another layer of GO as such.

I think VIA's niche is longer total trips with more limited stops.

We do need, though, to introduce the idea of the province directly funding VIA for services which compliment the commuter-shed goals of GO.

We also do need to see additional public track ownership, though neither CN nor CP will be selling their mainlines in the near future.

K-W to London (CN North Mainline) should be bought by either VIA or Mx

The other logical buys would be track between VIA's Chatham trackage and London; and I would argue for CN's Grimsby sub (the Hamilton-Niagara link); which aside from retaining dedicated trackage for accessing Hamilton's Industry is not all that busy.
 
I believe this is St. Mary's Station? Looks like decent ridership.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676210488235917312

Screenshot_2023-07-04_141608.jpg
 
Krypto98 said:
Stratford... at the minimum I think they should extend the Kitchener line to Stratford,
Click to expand...
Indeed as we saw in your excellent speed surveys, the line east of Stratford is in much better condition than west of it. There are substantial segments where trains can go 60 mph. The main issue is the slow order through the west side of Kitchener.

Starting in Stratford would also avoid the delays that GO trains experience at the CP diamond in London.

I think it would make sense to extend a few trains per day to Stratford, along with resolving the slow order through Kitchener.
 
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Northern Light said:
I agree w/GO having a Hamilton Hub (and a K-W one).

I don't really think we need another layer of GO as such.

I think VIA's niche is longer total trips with more limited stops.

We do need, though, to introduce the idea of the province directly funding VIA for services which compliment the commuter-shed goals of GO.

We also do need to see additional public track ownership, though neither CN nor CP will be selling their mainlines in the near future.

K-W to London (CN North Mainline) should be bought by either VIA or Mx

The other logical buys would be track between VIA's Chatham trackage and London; and I would argue for CN's Grimsby sub (the Hamilton-Niagara link); which aside from retaining dedicated trackage for accessing Hamilton's Industry is not all that busy.
Click to expand...

Our problem is having two levels of government with two very divergent agendas and insufficient incentive to work in unison. And reluctance to spend the necessary capital.

I do think that the service has three discernable tiers. And (for once, as I normally find we compare to this reference point to often! ) I would use the Netherlands as precedent. They have Sprinter trains, which resemble GO RER; they have Intercity trains which link regional centers eg Amsterdam and Rotterdam; and they have the Thalys/Eurostar level longer distance, higher performance high speed trains.

If we ran with that model, we would have Sprinters making local stops St. Marys-Stratford -New Hamburg-Baden-Kitchener, Intercity trains running Toronto- Brampton-Guelph-Kitchener-Stratford-London; and we would have Eurostar continuing on from Montreal through Toronto to London. Substitute VIA for Eurostar, give Intercity and Sprinter to ML, and things do align.

Certainly, Netherlands have far more trackage to make that work, and people will argue population density, although I feel that may be overargued.....the distances between population centers and small towns is converging, even if absolute population numbers isn't, yet. (A 50-million Canada isn't that far away...). What is unproductive is trying to make everything work with a single 12-car GO train that stops everywhere. On a track that neither Ottawa nor Ontario owns.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Certainly, Netherlands have far more trackage to make that work, and people will argue population density, although I feel that may be overargued.....the distances between population centers and small towns is converging, even if absolute population numbers isn't, yet. (A 50-million Canada isn't that far away...). What is unproductive is trying to make everything work with a single 12-car GO train that stops everywhere. On a track that neither Ottawa nor Ontario owns.

- Paul
Click to expand...

Population Density of the Netherlands as a whole is a hair over 500 per km2

Population Density of the GGH, which includes K-W, but not Stratford/London) is ~350 per km2

If you get all the way out to Essex, your coming down a bit, depends on how you draw the lines, but lets say ~300per km2

There is a difference, but not as much as some might think.

***

Interesting contrast here, the U.S. North-East Corridor's catchment, population density (Boston to Baltimore) is ~870 per km2
 
The note I’d toss into this is that I really don’t think we should bother with a Brantford GO train unless it involves rebuilding the GRR/GVR and running a Guelph - Cambridge - Brantford - Hamilton service; ultimately the VIA service is perfectly capable of serving Brantford without the duplication GO would involve, and a network that cuts VIA through Kitchener but ramps up to proper full day 2 way GO service in the north and VIA at least as far west as London is going to have better results for users than a more limited service
crs1026 said:
Our problem is having two levels of government with two very divergent agendas and insufficient incentive to work in unison. And reluctance to spend the necessary capital.

I do think that the service has three discernable tiers. And (for once, as I normally find we compare to this reference point to often! ) I would use the Netherlands as precedent. They have Sprinter trains, which resemble GO RER; they have Intercity trains which link regional centers eg Amsterdam and Rotterdam; and they have the Thalys/Eurostar level longer distance, higher performance high speed trains.

If we ran with that model, we would have Sprinters making local stops St. Marys-Stratford -New Hamburg-Baden-Kitchener, Intercity trains running Toronto- Brampton-Guelph-Kitchener-Stratford-London; and we would have Eurostar continuing on from Montreal through Toronto to London. Substitute VIA for Eurostar, give Intercity and Sprinter to ML, and things do align.

Certainly, Netherlands have far more trackage to make that work, and people will argue population density, although I feel that may be overargued.....the distances between population centers and small towns is converging, even if absolute population numbers isn't, yet. (A 50-million Canada isn't that far away...). What is unproductive is trying to make everything work with a single 12-car GO train that stops everywhere. On a track that neither Ottawa nor Ontario owns.

- Paul
Click to expand...
this is exactly the model I’d suggest with the caveats that the western local trains really should reach Guelph, and that rather than triple or more tracking most of the north main I’d go for double with the full express service through Hamilton and Branford.
 
Northern Light said:
Population Density of the Netherlands as a whole is a hair over 500 per km2

Population Density of the GGH, which includes K-W, but not Stratford/London) is ~350 per km2

If you get all the way out to Essex, your coming down a bit, depends on how you draw the lines, but lets say ~300per km2

There is a difference, but not as much as some might think.

***

Interesting contrast here, the U.S. North-East Corridor's catchment, population density (Boston to Baltimore) is ~870 per km2
Click to expand...

The population density gives a good idea of how many trips there will be in an area, but it doesn't tell you anything about how easy it would be to serve those trips.

If the population is evenly spread at that density, it would take an enormous amount of service to provide a decent frequency for all trips:
Density1.PNG

This is like the suburbs of most North American cities.

If the population is concentrated into a variety of relatively dense centres, then it takes a lot less service to serve all the trips at a reasonable frequency.
Density2.PNG

This is like the Netherlands.

But the best case scenario is if your population is arranged along particular corridors, because you can achieve very high coverage with only a handful of services.
Density3.PNG

This is like Japan or Hong Kong. Or Southern Ontario.

Nearly all of our major cities are aligned in a handful of corridors. If you play connect-the-dots with them, you pretty much get our existing passenger rail network:
Density4.PNG

(There are a couple missing links like Kitchener-Brantford and Guelph-Hamilton but the rail coverage is still pretty good). Those missing links can be covered by bus service.

In the Netherlands, population centres are scattered all over the place, so it takes a huge number of lines and services to make the rail network frequent, fast and direct.
Density5.JPG


In Southern Ontario running Dutch levels of service would only cost us only a tiny fraction of the cost of achieving those frequencies in the Netherlands, simply because there are so many fewer services to run.

The lower density of Southern Ontario is in large part due to the vast areas of farmland between population centres once you get west of Kitchener. But those areas don't make rail any less competitive. In fact, they can make rail more competitive, since intercity trains themselves have an average speed higher than cars. The longer the distance the more the speed advantage offsets the time passengers spent getting to the station and waiting for the train.
 
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denfromoakvillemilton said:
What do people think about St Marys? Does that also merit consider or just Stratford?
Click to expand...
St marys has 2 issues

Platform is so short that only 1 door opens there... also the trestle just east of the station has an weight per axle limit which is why go has only been sending the f59s on the London run to begin with...
 
reaperexpress said:
The population density gives a good idea of how many trips there will be in an area, but it doesn't tell you anything about how easy it would be to serve those trips.

If the population is evenly spread at that density, it would take an enormous amount of service to provide a decent frequency for all trips:
View attachment 489915
This is like the suburbs of most North American cities.

If the population is concentrated into a variety of relatively dense centres, then it takes a lot less service to serve all the trips at a reasonable frequency.
View attachment 489914
This is like the Netherlands.

But the best case scenario is if your population is arranged along particular corridors, because you can achieve very high coverage with only a handful of services.
View attachment 489913
This is like Japan or Hong Kong. Or Southern Ontario.

Nearly all of our major cities are aligned in a handful of corridors. If you play connect-the-dots with them, you pretty much get our existing passenger rail network:
View attachment 489918
(There are a couple missing links like Kitchener-Brantford and Guelph-Hamilton but the rail coverage is still pretty good). Those missing links can be covered by bus service.

In the Netherlands, population centres are scattered all over the place, so it takes a huge number of lines and services to make the rail network frequent, fast and direct.
View attachment 489917

In Southern Ontario running Dutch levels of service would only cost us only a tiny fraction of the cost of achieving those frequencies in the Netherlands, simply because there are so many fewer services to run.

The lower density of Southern Ontario is in large part due to the vast areas of farmland between population centres once you get west of Kitchener. But those areas don't make rail any less competitive. In fact, they can make rail more competitive, since intercity trains themselves have an average speed higher than cars. The longer the distance the more the speed advantage offsets the time passengers spent getting to the station and waiting for the train.
Click to expand...
Not to beat a dead horse (railways, here), but the missing links in Southern Ontario used to exist- so that’s either a pro or a con depending how you look at it. There’s a clear path of what filling missing links look like… but ofc, the rails are gone, so we need to actually build them- much bigger hurdle.

(Correct me if I’m wrong, but European nations don’t seem to have to grapple with lost corridors either- they never “lost” any, so new builds typically serve unique roles?)
 
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