GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[nfitz]

But the issue is that CP still had lots of freights scheduled between those two slots, and so having GO trains running back and forth while CP's own trains are running would be problematic (in their eyes). And so there would be a couple of round trips in the morning between 6 and 9am, and another couple between 3 and 7pm - and nothing more outside of those times.

Frequent service is obviously not happening until there's significant and expensive upgrades.

But would a train every couple of hours be a big deal? Many lines accommodate non-frequent passenger trips; even CPKS. (as did this line, past Milton, until the 1960s). Even running to Streetsville would be an improvement.

 

[crs1026]

Frequent service is obviously not happening until there's significant and expensive upgrades.

But would a train every couple of hours be a big deal? Many lines accommodate non-frequent passenger trips; even CPKS. (as did this line, past Milton, until the 1960s). Even running to Streetsville would be an improvement.

The problem is simply, the track window CP has to clear to run two trains 90 minutes apart is almost the same window as it provides to run eight trains spaced every 15 minutes.

And, every station has to be opened, and cleaned, and patrolled for the same window.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The problem is simply, the track window CP has to clear to run two trains 90 minutes apart is almost the same window as it provides to run eight trains spaced every 15 minutes.

It's 3-4 tracks to just before Dixie GO. And then 2 tracks to Cooksville, and 3 again to north of 403. And then 2 tracks to Guelph Junction. After that it's only 1 track. I'm not sure how they can manage operation on one track (including the presumably heavier-used Toronto to Montreal track) elsewhere, but need to clear a 3-hour window for the occasional passenger run. If they run to Meadowvale, they can easily run a single train, every 2 hours.

And, every station has to be opened, and cleaned, and patrolled for the same window.

I've seen some stations unstaffed and locked stations when trains are running. And have never seen security and cleaning staff at the station (other than the occasional person cleaning the floors in the locked station).

 

[crs1026]

It's 3-4 tracks to just before Dixie GO. And then 2 tracks to Cooksville, and 3 again to north of 403. And then 2 tracks to Guelph Junction. After that it's only 1 track. I'm not sure how they can manage operation on one track (including the presumably heavier-used Toronto to Montreal track) elsewhere, but need to clear a 3-hour window for the occasional passenger run. If they run to Meadowvale, they can easily run a single train, every 2 hours.

I've seen some stations unstaffed and locked stations when trains are running. And have never seen staff at the station.

Every GO train needs to cross over across the freight path. With longer trains, there are only a few places on the line where freights can be held even for a few minutes to weave GO and opposing freights. It’s just not the same operating environment that it was when the service began.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but we should not underestimate the impacts, which are real. They are substantial enough to encourage CP to play it safe. If I had a boss in Calgary who was watching my metrics on freight dwell and velocity, I’d be playing it safe too.

- Paul

 

[Sunnyside]

This is off-hand, but I do think people forget that the Milton Line is fairly impressive for what it has to work with. It’s the second-most used line in the system behind LSW/E (and not by a significant margin) while it’s peak-only. It does make me wonder how much latent potential there is, and how far Metrolinx should be willing to push CP to add trains before significant upgrades/seperation. Funny how it only exists as compensation for a tragedy. It speaks to the latent value of all unused rail corridors that Ontario has glossed over in the last 50 years.

 

[nfitz]

Every GO train needs to cross over across the freight path. With longer trains, there are only a few places on the line where freights can be held even for a few minutes to weave GO and opposing freights. It’s just not the same operating environment that it was when the service began.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but we should not underestimate the impacts, which are real. They are substantial enough to encourage CP to play it safe. If I had a boss in Calgary who was watching my metrics on freight dwell and velocity, I’d be playing it safe too.

I'm puzzled how people think that VIA HFR is going to run significantly greater distances on CP track when CP seems to work harder to create obstacles than find solutions.

 

[smallspy]

It's 3-4 tracks to just before Dixie GO. And then 2 tracks to Cooksville, and 3 again to north of 403. And then 2 tracks to Guelph Junction. After that it's only 1 track. I'm not sure how they can manage operation on one track (including the presumably heavier-used Toronto to Montreal track) elsewhere, but need to clear a 3-hour window for the occasional passenger run. If they run to Meadowvale, they can easily run a single train, every 2 hours.

There's not as much track as you think there is.

The Galt Sub is 2 tracks from Dupont (mile 4.3) to West Toronto (4.9), 3 tracks to Humber (7.3), 2 tracks to Royal York (7.5), 3 tracks to Dixie (12.0) (with Kipling on the north side of the corridor at 9.7), 2 tracks to Mississauga (15.8) (with Dixie and Cooksville on the north side at 12.4 and 15.4, respectively), 3 tracks to Erindale (18.8) (with Erindale Station on the north side at 18.1), and then 2 tracks the rest of the way west with stations at Streetsville (20.3, both tracks), Meadowvale (23.1, north side), Lisgar (25.2) and Milton (31.2, north side from the siding).

This means that GO trains join at the south side of the corridor at West Toronto, and only have 3 chances to make it to the north by Kipling - Scarlett Rd (6.8), Royal York (7.5) and Obico (9.6). Then once they're there, they need to stay on the north side of the corridor with limited opportunities to pass opposing movements.

And CP would only have the south track clear for its own moves.

I've seen some stations unstaffed and locked stations when trains are running. And have never seen security and cleaning staff at the station (other than the occasional person cleaning the floors in the locked station).

Staffing is far less of a concern, and GO is happy to lock stations up and still have trains serving them.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

The Galt Sub is 2 tracks from Dupont (mile 4.3) to West Toronto (4.9), 3 tracks to Humber (7.3), 2 tracks to Royal York (7.5), 3 tracks to Dixie (12.0) (with Kipling on the north side of the corridor at 9.7), 2 tracks to Mississauga (15.8) (with Dixie and Cooksville on the north side at 12.4 and 15.4, respectively), 3 tracks to Erindale (18.8) (with Erindale Station on the north side at 18.1), and then 2 tracks the rest of the way west with stations at Streetsville (20.3, both tracks), Meadowvale (23.1, north side), Lisgar (25.2) and Milton (31.2, north side from the siding).

Add to this the number of level crossings that exist in proximity to control points. If CP were to allow GO more access, in terms of either using two tracks at one time, and/or increasing the duration of the current windows, there would be more occasions where freights might have to pause for a few minutes at a control point - either before crossing over, or waiting for a GO to clear. This would tie up level crossings, some of them (especiallly in Erindale, and through Streetsville) for unacceptable lengths of time. Longer trains demand a "clear alley" right through the whole territory.

I watched a westbound freight this morning that came out of Lambton Yard, proceeded to Dixie on the north track, but then had to somehow get across to the south track in the face of the GO fleet. It waited for a couple of GO trains, then the RTC allowed it to make its move.... by the time it had cleared the crossovers it was delaying the next eastward GO in the process. These conflicts really do happen. Certainly there are quiet periods, but there are periods where 2 or 3 trains converge on the same location. One can only ask CP to absorb a reasonable level of adverse impact. Beyond that, ML needs to shell out some cash for added track.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

I watched a westbound freight this morning that came out of Lambton Yard, proceeded to Dixie on the north track, but then had to somehow get across to the south track in the face of the GO fleet. It waited for a couple of GO trains, then the RTC allowed it to make its move.... by the time it had cleared the crossovers it was delaying the next eastward GO in the process. These conflicts really do happen. Certainly there are quiet periods, but there are periods where 2 or 3 trains converge on the same location. One can only ask CP to absorb a reasonable level of adverse impact. Beyond that, ML needs to shell out some cash.

- Paul

How heavily is Lambton being used these days?

 

[crs1026]

How heavily is Lambton being used these days?

It is used for block swapping and staging, as well as storage. I believe one or two local jobs still originate and terminate there. So it's an official element in the operating plan.

For a time, it was a ritual for every new CP CEO to order Lambton yard closed as part of their "new broom" efficiency initiatives. Somehow the yard always reopened. Even EHH tried that, but even he didn't have the courage to remove the tracks (as he did in other locations, to prevent undoing of changes in operations that he imposed).

The most recent guy hasn't done that. Unless the whole traffic pattern shifts, I would bet that Lambton remains open for the foreseeable future.

- Paul

 

[KevinT]

I love these insights Paul, thank you.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So for Milton, it would be the flyover at Humber and then 2 (3?) Tracks from Dupont all the way to Campbellville. That sounds like billions.

 

[crs1026]

So for Milton, it would be the flyover at Humber and then 2 (3?) Tracks from Dupont all the way to Campbellville. That sounds like billions.

If you want close-headway 2WAD, no doubt. I wonder what a continuous third track and some passing tracks might accomplish, however..

Six major Grade Separations (Wolfedale, Erindale Station, Mississauga Rd, Thomas St, 9th Line, 10th Line) to address the stopped freight issues, let alone safety for increased frequency. And a new bridge span over the Credit. Several new platforms with underpasses at various stations. Never mind any land acquisition and the track itself. I'm sure that would hit a billion easily.

Having said that, there are already lots of grade separations and most do have space for additional tracks already in place. It's not a greenfield, more a matter of connecting the existing dots. In some ways, there is an opportunity to extract value from a lot of past investment by the municipality and province.

But difficult to achieve on the existing plant - the added investment is essential imho.

- Paul

 

[WB62]

As I recall and have written down, an 11th train was tentatively scheduled to start in April 2020.

You seem to know quite a lot about what was extra service was planned right before COVID shut everything down, can you tell us any other additional services that were planned for early 2020 before COVID got in the way?

 

[Northern Light]

Six major Grade Separations (Wolfedale, Erindale Station, Mississauga Rd, Thomas St, 9th Line, 10th Line) to address the stopped freight issues, let alone safety for increased frequency. And a new bridge span over the Credit. Several new platforms with underpasses at various stations. Never mind any land acquisition and the track itself. I'm sure that would hit a billion easily.

- Paul

So for Milton, it would be the flyover at Humber and then 2 (3?) Tracks from Dupont all the way to Campbellville. That sounds like billions.

To my understanding, the internal numbers being bandied about for 2WAD service on Milton had a budget figure of ~1B as of 18 months ago.

Given construction inflation since then, a budget of 1.5B might be more more realistic.

I'm uncertain what infrastructure that was to buy; but I am given to understand the target was 2WAD at 30M off-peak for the investment.