GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Allandale25]

I assume this could mean more buses going to Port Credit and not all the way to Union...

Toronto traffic is about to get worse next year with Gardiner repairs and Metrolinx construction

Toronto roads, especially near Exhibition Place, will be “challenging” for drivers next summer as major congestion due to massive projects and events are set to take place in 2023.

www.thestar.com

 

[Diez Mil Cantos]

Why can't Metrolinx negotiate with CP to use the Canpa and Midtown Subs to divert around the Ex during construction? Is this feasible? Because if not, they might just break the most profitable GO line for years to come.

 

[lenaitch]

I’m afraid that simplistic “why don’t they just….” proposals won’t change anything.

Someone needs to commission a working group consisting of reps from the various first response organizations and the rail agencies and regulator ( and maybe others eg the Attorney General) with a mandate that the current arrangement is unacceptable and must be changed. That mandate needs to be pretty firm because any one of the parties standing on the status quo can kill any forward motion.

The target audience for a better process involves so many people (hundreds of rail workers, thousands of first responders) and changing what people are accustomed to doing is not to be underestimated.

A few things that play into this
- the investigation of an incident has to be done to evidentiary standards in light of potential criminal and civil responses
- the position of the stopped train, and the status of numerous controls and devices on that train, may be part of that train of evidence and cannot be disturbed
- once the scene is occupied by first responders, the railway no longer has sufficient control of the scene to operate safely
- to be a bit graphic, the location(s) of human remains may make it unwise to have passengers on moving trains pass through the area
- the operability of the train itself may be in question and may need to be verified (and documented, see evidentiary comment)
- the train may itself be contaminated by human remains and not be fit to proceed
- the crew will no longer be fit for service

Rather than rushing to run trains during the incident investigation, my simplistic solution is to make the Incident Commander more accountable for the care and safety of those passengers. ML may not be able to rustle up a supply of shuttle buses to offload a disabled train, but I bet the Fire Department can get something done.

I would pass a regulation that every situation where a train containing passengers is stalled in an isolated location for longer than a defined period must be deemed a rescue emergency and requires dispatch of some level of first response with an accountable Incident Commander with legal authority and accountability to make decisions and take action. (Frankly, I feel the same approach is needed with respect to loaded airplanes that are parked on the tarmac for hours without regard for the human needs of passengers).

There is not, nor has there ever been, a design specification for railway rights of way mandating accessibility to every inch of line, either to bring first responders to a scene or to evacuate passengers from a scene. Standards for say evacuation of the TTC subway are far higher. It’s high time that this is addressed for GO service, at least in the urban environment of the GTA. There may be limits to what is possible, but we definitely need to do better.

- Paul

PS - maybe GO railcars need a maximum legal loading regulation. We don’t pack airplanes to standing room levels….

All good points but, as always, the devil is in the details. An incident commander isn't a magical designation. He/she can only call upon and direct resources that are (a) already under their command, or (b) placed under their command by virtue of an agreement. In an incident such as this, the first question is always 'who is in charge'. If a death is involved, it would be the Coroner (who, btw, commands virtually no resources). At a major fire, clearly a senior fire commander would be in charge and can direct Fire Service resources as they see fit, but he or she has no natural authority to, for example, order up a fleet of buses and drivers. That requires agreements, and agreements require protocols. If nothing else, the protocols help ensure that the external resources are appropriate and/or don't make things worse. It is somewhat easier when the various services have the same employer (i.e. the City of Toronto) but it gets more complicated when they are different. It gets even more complicated when the resources needed are from the private sector.

All of this needs to be sorted out beforehand. It's called planning, and seems like it is something Metrolinx (and VIA by the sounds of it) needs to do a whole lot better.

 

[WB62]

I’m afraid that simplistic “why don’t they just….” proposals won’t change anything.

Someone needs to commission a working group consisting of reps from the various first response organizations and the rail agencies and regulator ( and maybe others eg the Attorney General) with a mandate that the current arrangement is unacceptable and must be changed. That mandate needs to be pretty firm because any one of the parties standing on the status quo can kill any forward motion.

The target audience for a better process involves so many people (hundreds of rail workers, thousands of first responders) and changing what people are accustomed to doing is not to be underestimated.

A few things that play into this
- the investigation of an incident has to be done to evidentiary standards in light of potential criminal and civil responses
- the position of the stopped train, and the status of numerous controls and devices on that train, may be part of that train of evidence and cannot be disturbed
- once the scene is occupied by first responders, the railway no longer has sufficient control of the scene to operate safely
- to be a bit graphic, the location(s) of human remains may make it unwise to have passengers on moving trains pass through the area
- the operability of the train itself may be in question and may need to be verified (and documented, see evidentiary comment)
- the train may itself be contaminated by human remains and not be fit to proceed
- the crew will no longer be fit for service

Rather than rushing to run trains during the incident investigation, my simplistic solution is to make the Incident Commander more accountable for the care and safety of those passengers. ML may not be able to rustle up a supply of shuttle buses to offload a disabled train, but I bet the Fire Department can get something done.

I would pass a regulation that every situation where a train containing passengers is stalled in an isolated location for longer than a defined period must be deemed a rescue emergency and requires dispatch of some level of first response with an accountable Incident Commander with legal authority and accountability to make decisions and take action. (Frankly, I feel the same approach is needed with respect to loaded airplanes that are parked on the tarmac for hours without regard for the human needs of passengers).

There is not, nor has there ever been, a design specification for railway rights of way mandating accessibility to every inch of line, either to bring first responders to a scene or to evacuate passengers from a scene. Standards for say evacuation of the TTC subway are far higher. It’s high time that this is addressed for GO service, at least in the urban environment of the GTA. There may be limits to what is possible, but we definitely need to do better.

- Paul

PS - maybe GO railcars need a maximum legal loading regulation. We don’t pack airplanes to standing room levels….

Yesterday I spoke to the CSA that took over at Mimico, they said the police had taken over the scene for the investigation and wouldn’t allow any sort of official evacuation even if one was proposed by GO. He showed me a photo that he was sent of the nearest bridge and how emergency services were getting down and it indeed was far too steep, to the point where a rope would’ve needed to be used to get people up (not feasible for thousands of people).

As for crowding, the cab car hit the person and the train stopped as the first coach and locomotive were sitting on top of the remains, so everyone in the first coach was forced to move further up the train as to not have to see the remains of who was hit, which reduced the already busy train to 11 usable cars, later on; when people pried the door open on another coach, that one was also closed for the remainder of the trip (I can’t remember if they switched trains as Mimico or Oakville, so it wasn’t an issue for too long, further reducing capacity.

I agree that Metrolinx and GO didn’t handle the situation correctly, but they also did the most they could’ve done in that situation, it’s just the general public doesn’t know or understand how these sort of things are handled.

 

[Bordercollie]

Yesterday I spoke to the CSA that took over at Mimico, they said the police had taken over the scene for the investigation and wouldn’t allow any sort of official evacuation even if one was proposed by GO. He showed me a photo that he was sent of the nearest bridge and how emergency services were getting down and it indeed was far too steep, to the point where a rope would’ve needed to be used to get people up (not feasible for thousands of people).

As for crowding, the cab car hit the person and the train stopped as the first coach and locomotive were sitting on top of the remains, so everyone in the first coach was forced to move further up the train as to not have to see the remains of who was hit, which reduced the already busy train to 11 usable cars, later on; when people pried the door open on another coach, that one was also closed for the remainder of the trip (I can’t remember if they switched trains as Mimico or Oakville, so it wasn’t an issue for too long, further reducing capacity.

I agree that Metrolinx and GO didn’t handle the situation correctly, but they also did the most they could’ve done in that situation, it’s just the general public doesn’t know or understand how these sort of things are handled.

You could still park a train on the adjacent track and transfer customers in less than 3 hours.

 

[Northern Light]

Yesterday I spoke to the CSA that took over at Mimico, they said the police had taken over the scene for the investigation and wouldn’t allow any sort of official evacuation even if one was proposed by GO. He showed me a photo that he was sent of the nearest bridge and how emergency services were getting down and it indeed was far too steep, to the point where a rope would’ve needed to be used to get people up (not feasible for thousands of people).

As for crowding, the cab car hit the person and the train stopped as the first coach and locomotive were sitting on top of the remains, so everyone in the first coach was forced to move further up the train as to not have to see the remains of who was hit, which reduced the already busy train to 11 usable cars, later on; when people pried the door open on another coach, that one was also closed for the remainder of the trip (I can’t remember if they switched trains as Mimico or Oakville, so it wasn’t an issue for too long, further reducing capacity.

I agree that Metrolinx and GO didn’t handle the situation correctly, but they also did the most they could’ve done in that situation, it’s just the general public doesn’t know or understand how these sort of things are handled.

I really wanted to like this post for its informative quality; but as a like is a broad endorsement, I have to pass for that one statement in the closing line....

I don't accept the bolded, at all.

To the extent the police restricted an evacuation ............, which I'm not certain was requested..............

That would be unacceptable.

If the problem is a lack of protocols for GO or emergency services, shame on everyone because, sadly, this is not the first, or second, or 100th on-track fatality, I certainly remember some as a child in the 80s.

There should have been proper protocol a very long time ago.

People need to get their act together and stop making government look bad, and hysterical complainers look reasonable.

 

[crs1026]

^"People don't understand how we do these things" is an excuse that no public-serving agency should ever offer to justify themselves.

As I related a few pages back, I had my own recent experience with an over-filled, late night GO train. I'm not claustrophobic, but the compression of people in the upper floors of a GO bilevel really bothered me. It was plainly unsafe, even for an operating train that wasn't facing a significant delay. Had there have been a medical or other incident, people were effectively gridlocked.

At the risk of sounding a bit old, I find that late night GO train crowds- especially after music events - can be pretty mean (those of us from the hippy generation partied just as hard downtown, but somehow we were a lot more mellow and good natured). Oddly, heavy metal crowds seem to be mellow - but country music fans generally aren't nice afterwards.

The idea that a trainful of people can be directed to just chill indefinitely under cramped conditions, while the authorities do their thing, is asking for trouble IMHO. It's very complicated, but there is some urgency to making improvements and being more prepared for contingencies.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

You could still park a train on the adjacent track and transfer customers in less than 3 hours.

It's certainly possible that a train could be brought somewhat close to the scene, and passengers required to walk to it.... but there will be concerns about terrain, lighting, disabled riders, etc. That activity could require as many personnel as is required to address the victim and the investigation - and it would require a much greater level of coordination and control. Which is essentially why the police would be reluctant to allow it - they don't need the added risk and distraction. But at some level, they may just have to make the effort, especially in crush load conditions.

Moving a train into the scene while any number of first responders are at work (who may have brought gear to the scene) (and who may be detailed to move all over the place taking measurements, photos, etc) (and who are not familiar with railway rules, procedures, terminology, or the specific layout of the location) is not as easy as it may sound.

The various agencies use different protocols, their communications systems may not interconnect, personnel will be trying to accomplish any number of things and may be heads-down or not able to accept distractions. One doesn't just creep a train into a group of busy people and hope they will all notice and step out of the way. The precautions and procedures that are used to protect railway employees working at track level don't generalise well to these multi-agency incidents, which is why better protocols are needed.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

It's certainly possible that a train could be brought somewhat close to the scene, and passengers required to walk to it.... but there will be concerns about terrain, lighting, disabled riders, etc. That activity could require as many personnel as is required to address the victim and the investigation - and it would require a much greater level of coordination and control. Which is essentially why the police would be reluctant to allow it - they don't need the added risk and distraction. But at some level, they may just have to make the effort, especially in crush load conditions.

Moving a train into the scene while any number of first responders are at work (who may have brought gear to the scene) (and who may be detailed to move all over the place taking measurements, photos, etc) (and who are not familiar with railway rules, procedures, terminology, or the specific layout of the location) is not as easy as it may sound.

The various agencies use different protocols, their communications systems may not interconnect, personnel will be trying to accomplish any number of things and may be heads-down or not able to accept distractions. One doesn't just creep a train into a group of busy people and hope they will all notice and step out of the way. The precautions and procedures that are used to protect railway employees working at track level don't generalise well to these multi-agency incidents, which is why better protocols are needed.

- Paul

It's somewhat similar to the olden days when cops et al would wander around a collision scene separated from high speed moving traffic by a line of cones, flares or some flashing lights. You've got your head down and focused on the task, not the traffic. It doesn't happen now - roadways are closed completely. Safety applies to the public as well as the workers.

 

[Jonny5]

It's certainly possible that a train could be brought somewhat close to the scene, and passengers required to walk to it.... but there will be concerns about terrain, lighting, disabled riders, etc. That activity could require as many personnel as is required to address the victim and the investigation - and it would require a much greater level of coordination and control. Which is essentially why the police would be reluctant to allow it - they don't need the added risk and distraction. But at some level, they may just have to make the effort, especially in crush load conditions.

Right because what if the cops had said "this train isn't moving for the next six hours"?

So I guess the real question is what is the cutoff time, and what factors go into deciding that if it's a variable time based on circumstance. I also think that is something that should be public and have public input.
Perhaps they also need to have an annual test of this. Pack a few cars full and tell the authorities to "walk them out of here". They do these multi-agency tests every few years for terrorist attacks where a few hundred people pretend they are injured/dead on a Sunday morning outside Union Station or somewhere downtown and then all the agencies have to clear the scene together. Maybe if they go through this test they would be more willing to let it happen when really needed, and happen without the most extreme safety precautions that take hours to set up.

 

[Mr Finish Line]

Wasn't the train in question the train that hit the person?

I didn't realize that...

 

[WB62]

I really wanted to like this post for its informative quality; but as a like is a broad endorsement, I have to pass for that one statement in the closing line....

I don't accept the bolded, at all.

To the extent the police restricted an evacuation ............, which I'm not certain was requested..............

That would be unacceptable.

If the problem is a lack of protocols for GO or emergency services, shame on everyone because, sadly, this is not the first, or second, or 100th on-track fatality, I certainly remember some as a child in the 80s.

There should have been proper protocol a very long time ago.

People need to get their act together and stop making government look bad, and hysterical complainers look reasonable.

I mean the police restricted an evacuation as it was not necessary at the moment, nobody onboard was in serious danger and it would’ve been far more dangerous to have everyone (the thousands of people which included accessibility and drunk people) walk over the tracks and up the incline that emergency services needed a rope to use.

I agree with you though with the rest of your reply, they should have had a proper procedure ready and perfected years ago, but I think this specific incident was just a case where so much went wrong at once.

 

[WB62]

Any chance of this being true?

 

[Northern Light]

Any chance of this being true?

Yes, there's a chance.

This is in line with what I had heard going back to spring, which had, to my understanding been contemplated as 2 phase implementation in June and Sept.

Then neither happened.

So the idea is credible.

My question is if all those staff are available for October runs, where were they earlier?

Mx was supposed to have its pipeline of staff ready starting in June..............and then September.

So I certainly believe increases are coming, but how much and when I'm giving up on predicting for a few weeks. I used to have a good track record on these things.......but Mx and plans have not
been meeting reality well the last while.

Edit to add, if increases are actually on the table for October @smallspy might have a beat on that.

 

[smallspy]

Edit to add, if increases are actually on the table for October @smallspy might have a beat on that.

My information is that they are not.

We're not likely to see increases until January, unfortunately. And even those may be tempered to what we'd all like to see.

Dan