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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

You are forgetting about the costs of accommodating AD2D RER service with CN's longhaul freights still on CN's Halton Sub. The Missing Link would fix the issues of two GO Corridors including HFR/HSR to London and beyond...
I don't see how the Missing Link will help with Milton Sub traffic - it would (if my understanding was correct), use the blue route, more or less. I don't see overlap with the Milton GO, at least, not in the trickier-to-build sections east of Lisgar Station or whereabouts. They're probably better treated as separate projects.
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I don't see how the Missing Link will help with Milton Sub traffic - it would (if my understanding was correct), use the blue route, more or less. I don't see overlap with the Milton GO, at least, not in the trickier-to-build sections east of Lisgar Station or whereabouts. They're probably better treated as separate projects.
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The 'Missing Link' was envisioned to do two different things.

One, was to remove CN traffic from the portion of the K-W line running through downtown Brampton, via the dark blue/purple in the image shown above.
Two, was to remove traffic from the CP line between the missing link's westernmost point (red through midtown); and shift it to the blue (CN) across the top of the City, via the same routing.
If you look at the dark/blue purple line, CP traffic, theoretically could have been diverted from ~ Milton to roughly Rouge Park, where the CN York sub heads south and crosses the CP mainline.
This would allow for greater Milton Service, but also a Midtown GO line to Agincourt (or points beyond)

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That said, you're not wrong that the initial suggestion was to focus on CN and freeing up the K-W corridor; but the CP line component was being talked about; though not with CP to my knowledge.

The Mississauga Study I cite below considered a 3-track configuration, but I know a six-track model was looked at.......2 for CN, 2 for CP and 2 for passenger rail.

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Mississauga did a report on this :

Link here: https://www7.mississauga.ca/Departm...ction-2018/Missing-Link-Feasability-Study.pdf

From Said Report:

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You are suggesting that adding 2 more tracks to part of the Milton line, would be tougher to negotiate, than building an entire new mainline (much of it on CN land), all the way from Milton to neat Pickering?

I'd think the opposite.

I don’t have a view one way or the other. My point was, the pure construction cost is probably not the most important consideration for the freight railways. Making them “whole” goes beyond the number of tracks or miles of line shifted.

- Paul
 
You are forgetting about the costs of accommodating AD2D RER service with CN's longhaul freights still on CN's Halton Sub. The Missing Link would fix the issues of two GO Corridors including HFR/HSR to London and beyond...
We are discussing the Milton service, which doesn't run on CN's Halton Sub. Therefore the cost is $0.

I don't see anyone is going to foot the bill anytime soon for CP to build a new mainline all the way from the border with Milton to Pickering! In comparison, the now cancelled plans to divert CN trains away from Brampton is cheap!
 
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We are discussing the Milton service, which doesn't run on CN's Halton Sub. Therefor the cost is $0.

I don't see anyone is going to foot the bill anytime soon for CP to build a new mainline all the way from the border with Milton to Pickering! In comparison, the now cancelled plans to divert CN trains away from Brampton is cheap!
Just to be clear. The current plan for the halton sub is to have a 3rd track through downtown brampton. And a grade separation at Silver or somewhere between Mount pleasant and Georgetown?

Couldn't they put 4 tracks through downtown brampton and relocate the existing station?
 
I've lost track of what argument you are trying to make, but whenever a public railroad is forced to deal with CN or CP, the cost rarely is $0... ;)
We are talking about RER service on the Milton line. How would there be ANY cost from CN? I'm really baffled here.

Obviously there's be significant money going to CP.

Just to be clear. The current plan for the halton sub is to have a 3rd track through downtown brampton. And a grade separation at Silver or somewhere between Mount pleasant and Georgetown?

Couldn't they put 4 tracks through downtown brampton and relocate the existing station?
I'd think there'd be space - the ROW looks to be over 120 feet wide - is that enough for 6 tracks? 5 for sure.

Can they do 2-way all-day with just one new track and a grade separation? There's already 3 (and in some places 4 tracks) almost all the way west to Brampton, and then from just west of Brampton to past Mount Pleasant.
 
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Just to be clear. The current plan for the halton sub is to have a 3rd track through downtown brampton. And a grade separation at Silver or somewhere between Mount pleasant and Georgetown?

Couldn't they put 4 tracks through downtown brampton and relocate the existing station?

The documents showing the changes around Brampton that I saw a while back (in City Council minutes, I think) did indeed show a fourth track pencilled in on the north side. The heritage depot would be moved.

Why not do it now? To keep costs down for a while, I presume. One step at a time…..

- Paul
 
We are talking about RER service on the Milton line. How would there be ANY cost from CN? I'm really baffled here.

Obviously there's be significant money going to CP.
I still don't know what proposal your statement "Therefor the cost is $0" referred to, but since it presumably concerned something which involves CN and/or CP, I suspect that my observation is applicable...
 
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The documents showing the changes around Brampton that I saw a while back (in City Council minutes, I think) did indeed show a fourth track pencilled in on the north side. The heritage depot would be moved.

Why not do it now? To keep costs down for a while, I presume. One step at a time…..

- Paul

Your memory is correct. It was a presentation given recently about the integrated downtown plan.

Item 10.1: https://pub-brampton.escribemeeting...Minutes&lang=English&Item=111&Tab=attachments


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I still don't know what proposal your statement "Therefor the cost is $0" referred to, but since it presumably concerned something which involves CN and/or CP
We were discussing the Milton GO service (which I explicitly noted in the previous sentence). You had responded by saying "You are forgetting about the costs of accommodating AD2D RER service with CN's longhaul freights still on CN's Halton Sub."

Tell me - if they go to 2-way all-day service on the Milton line - what has this got to do with anything on the CN Halton sub - and why are there any costs for the CN Halton sub? You seems to be focussing on a long-dead fantasy plan about rerouting CP's rail service around Toronto, including a relatively short-bypass for CN around Brampton - ignoring that there's plenty of space along the Milton line for additional tracks.
 
We were discussing the Milton GO service (which I explicitly noted in the previous sentence). You had responded by saying "You are forgetting about the costs of accommodating AD2D RER service with CN's longhaul freights still on CN's Halton Sub."

Tell me - if they go to 2-way all-day service on the Milton line - what has this got to do with anything on the CN Halton sub - and why are there any costs for the CN Halton sub? You seems to be focussing on a long-dead fantasy plan about rerouting CP's rail service around Toronto, including a relatively short-bypass for CN around Brampton - ignoring that there's plenty of space along the Milton line for additional tracks.

Your argument makes sense, but only so long as it is viewed in a narrow sense that strips away the context.

A decision to twin the Galt Sub is not an engineered solution…it’s a negotiated solution. You can be sure that CP will use its full negotiating leverage, meaning they will impose every tool and objection they can mount…. not because it improves the design of the solution, but just because it extracts a more favourable outcome for CP and its shareholders. In money, and in their capacity and effectiveness.

The best strategy when faced with a tough negotiation is to consider the best alternative solution… if Honda won’t sell me the car I want at the price I want, will I try Toyota? In this case, the alternative to getting a deal with CP to twin the Galt Sub is to persuade CN to move to a new corridor, and to convince both railways to share that corridor and the existing CN corridor - despite being fierce competitors to each other. (Which are negotiated solutions in their own right). So yes, we immediately have to include CN in the debate.

Even without turning our minds to relative cost, it strikes me that the bypass alternative is just too complicated a proposition to negotiate under our legal, regulatory, and political regimes.

The Bypass began as a simpler proposition - move CN off the Halton Sub between Bramalea and Milton, because that option might be a cheaper way of building Kitchener GO than twinning the Halton Sub. A previous government did a fair bit of diligence, and (for a time) seemed to believe that bypass was the cheaper alternative. The plan quickly morphed (conceptually) into get CP off the Galt Sub as well, facilitating GO lines to Milton and across North Toronto plus the original Kitchener piece.

On a technocratic level I prefer the bypass to the twin-the-Galt alternative, because it solves multiple agendas. But it seems like a deck of cards to negotiate/legislate/regulate/sell to taxpayers.

So we are back to twinning the Galt, when we can afford it….and until the base RER and four subways are built and paid for, I doubt anyone has the cash to meet CP’s asking price

- Paul
 
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A decision to twin the Galt Sub is not an engineered solution…it’s a negotiated solution. You can be sure that CP will use its full negotiating leverage, meaning they will impose every tool and objection they can mount…. not because it improves the design of the solution, but just because it extracts a more favourable outcome for CP and its shareholders. In money, and in their capacity and effectiveness.
Absolutely!

But surely a scheme to add more tracks to the Milton line (which was anticipated the century before last) is going to be easier (and cheaper) to negotiate, than getting CP to move 60 kilometres of their entire mainline corridor to north of the city.
 
Absolutely!

But surely a scheme to add more tracks to the Milton line (which was anticipated the century before last) is going to be easier (and cheaper) to negotiate, than getting CP to move 60 kilometres of their entire mainline corridor to north of the city.
It certainly is going to be "cheaper and easier" if you have a credible alternative proposal at hand, regardless or whether that is your preferred outcome or not...
 
Absolutely!

But surely a scheme to add more tracks to the Milton line (which was anticipated the century before last) is going to be easier (and cheaper) to negotiate, than getting CP to move 60 kilometres of their entire mainline corridor to north of the city.

Cheaper to build, certainly. But CP is not required to only charge at cost. They will have many arguments about the current and potential market value of the land, and how much of the corridor must be reserved to future proof their freight capability, etc etc.

The cost of building those 60 kms of new mainline may help set the limit on what CP will ask for the twinning.

(And that in turn likely has to assess the cost of getting CN to yes, not just the cost of the civil works and new track and signals up on the CN corridor…..because CN isn’t obliged to charge at cost either…...)

- Paul
 

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