GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

^The prevalence of backpacks is an interesting case study. It’s a case of designers having not changed their paradigm despite changes in the user population. Backpacks were a lot less common even 25 years ago. They present huge challenges for all forms of transit, which still assume that customers especially commuters had perhaps a newspaper and maybe a flat, flexible briefcase. Courteous riders take packs off their backs, but they remain unwieldy. Pretty hard to stuff under one’s feet when the seats are so tight. Bulky even if held by hand, put the on the floor under crowded conditions and you may not be able to bend down to retrieve it.

Overhead racks, anyone?

I find that people just generally haul more ‘stuff’ around with them these days. Even baby strollers have grown in size, so while there may be more space allocated on low floor vehicles than the older models, it is used up very quickly.

The quad seats may not be optimal, but I still find there is more ‘circulating’ space on a Flexity than on a transit bus. On today’s buses, the space between the front wheels is a pinch point - even a couple of standees in that space means one has to push aggressively to get past. If the people in the “accessibility” zone have walkers or buggies, the pich point extends right to the rear doors. And the “back porch” area with steps is not standee friendly. At least Flexities have more handholds and leaning spaces where one can try to squeeze out of the way.

I don’t have a better design, but there must be one.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

If the people in the “accessibility” zone have walkers or buggies, the pich point extends right to the rear doors.

- Paul

This reminds me of a very, very interesting regional dynamic that I've noticed.

In Toronto, if a parent with a child in a stroller boards the bus, they will sit in the accessible seats with the stroller in the aisle. As you point out, this creates a pinch point and frequently requires people to brush past to get to the back of the vehicle.

In Ottawa, if a parent with a child in a stroller boards the bus, everyone sitting in the accessible seats will get up and move, the parent will flip the accessible seats up and out of the way, and then usually stand in the accessible space with the stroller - freeing up much floor space for everyone else and allowing everyone to easily make their way to the back of the vehicle.

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

This reminds me of a very, very interesting regional dynamic that I've noticed.

In Toronto, if a parent with a child in a stroller boards the bus, they will sit in the accessible seats with the stroller in the aisle. As you point out, this creates a pinch point and frequently requires people to brush past to get to the back of the vehicle.

In Ottawa, if a parent with a child in a stroller boards the bus, everyone sitting in the accessible seats will get up and move, the parent will flip the accessible seats up and out of the way, and then usually stand in the accessible space with the stroller - freeing up much floor space for everyone else and allowing everyone to easily make their way to the back of the vehicle.

Dan

I asked the TTC to address this very issue with its bus design, by moving from having 'benches' in the accessible area, to flip-down seats, as they do on the Toronto Rockets.

I have noticed in one of the newer generations buses that they did in fact introduce this, albeit with a rather more cumbersome design (pull up on a yellow handle allows you to lower the seat, rather than just a simple spring system)

My notion was if the areas seats were clear by default, a parent with a stroller could insert said stroller w/no hassle and depending on its size, maybe pull down the last seat and sit beside said stroller.

Curiously, they did this with only one set of seats on the bus I saw, rather than all the blue seats.

 

[Krypto98]

Screenshot from 2019 Business Case on proposed service frequencies for Kitchener line. Interesting to note the freight bypass is on there and has been renamed to the 407 subdivision

https://twitter.com/x/status/1195448570285043712

 

[crs1026]

^ I'm wondering if I read those charts correctly - AM peak is two trains/hour from Kitchener and one from Georgetown....if the Kitchener service is half hourly, then the Georgetown train is on the 0:15 but there is a gap between :30 and :00? That seems a little lopsided. Maybe the 0:45 slot is for VIA? Midday makes more sense - every 20 minutes, with every third train continuing to Kitchener.

- Paul

 

[Streety McCarface]

Screenshot from 2019 Business Case on proposed service frequencies for Kitchener line. Interesting to note the freight bypass is on there and has been renamed to the 407 subdivision

https://twitter.com/x/status/1195448570285043712

View attachment 215185

It's an Initial Business Case: AKA a piece of paper that has a lot of goals with little to no engineering work done to back up claims and verify costs.

They also tend to make a lot of mistakes (spelling, grammar, etc) in these things, here's just one where they claim 2 airports are by the Kitchener corridor yet proceed to name 3:

There are some others like completely forgetting about Conestoga College.

One thing that really pisses me off about this business case is the fact that they assume that service expansion west of Bramalea would not be higher than under the proposed "Minimal Infrastructure" plan. Of course, the value of the 407 bypass goes down exponentially, the corridor is not being electrified, no new trains in their "representative service plan" are being added, and speeds aren't increasing. (Section 3 Figure 8)

 

[Streety McCarface]

Ridership statistics for some bus routes, but they're very skewed, because daily ridership is much higher on Thursdays/fridays/sundays on Routes 29 and 25, than it is during the rest of the week.

 

[tmlittle]

As a regular 25/29 rider, I can attest that the ridership is often pretty lopsided and there's a number of problems with it that make it a poor substitute for rail service and a poor connection to Toronto. A lot of the service expansion (and corresponding ridership growth) of the last 5 years has been with express versions of the 25 like the 25C that goes directly from the Waterloo universities to Square One. This is great for students going home on the weekend to Mississauga, but a poor service for pretty much any other situation - most of the population is in Kitchener, which is only served by the milk run 25, while only northern Cambridge gets GO service, with none in Galt.

The 25 is very poorly integrated with local transit (not entirely GO's fault by any means) and its stops favour the highway-oriented park and ride system rather than local transit terminals or light rail stations. For example, it bypasses Fairway Station in the south end of Kitchener which is one of the most significant hubs in the GRT system, and instead has an on street stop on King in a pretty desolate area and a stop at the Sportsworld park and ride instead. The 25 anecdotally can also get very delayed passing through downtown Kitchener, which can affect people's ability to make transfers, and add to the dubiousness of travelling on it if other options are available.

The problem with this kind of service model is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and the south end of the region is a dead zone for intercity transit of any kind. Improved GO train service is breath of fresh air because it allows a direct connection to Toronto, as well as to actual nearby cities (as opposed to the bustling metropolis of Aberfoyle, where the 25 passes through), and the Kitchener railway station has decent integration with local transit which will only improve over time.

Realistically, I think a number of temporary improvements could be made: perhaps a rationalization of all these Kitchener line bus-to-train routes in Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown, etc so you still had the peak direction commuter express going direct to Bramalea, but off-peak have a real Kitchener line bus making all the Kitchener line station stops. The business case identifies that Kitchener-Guelph is a big untapped market for example, and that's not an easy trip to make by bus with the transfer at Aberfoyle. It would also help with phasing in rail service. It couldn't compete with the express 25s for the student market in Waterloo, but it would help create more options for people in Kitchener, and would be a worthwhile alternative to just increasing the frequency of the 25, especially since so much of the 25's travel time is spent getting on and off the highway around Kitchener and Cambridge.

 

[Streety McCarface]

As a regular 25/29 rider, I can attest that the ridership is often pretty lopsided and there's a number of problems with it that make it a poor substitute for rail service and a poor connection to Toronto. A lot of the service expansion (and corresponding ridership growth) of the last 5 years has been with express versions of the 25 like the 25C that goes directly from the Waterloo universities to Square One. This is great for students going home on the weekend to Mississauga, but a poor service for pretty much any other situation - most of the population is in Kitchener, which is only served by the milk run 25, while only northern Cambridge gets GO service, with none in Galt.

The 25 is very poorly integrated with local transit (not entirely GO's fault by any means) and its stops favour the highway-oriented park and ride system rather than local transit terminals or light rail stations. For example, it bypasses Fairway Station in the south end of Kitchener which is one of the most significant hubs in the GRT system, and instead has an on street stop on King in a pretty desolate area and a stop at the Sportsworld park and ride instead. The 25 anecdotally can also get very delayed passing through downtown Kitchener, which can affect people's ability to make transfers, and add to the dubiousness of travelling on it if other options are available.

The problem with this kind of service model is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and the south end of the region is a dead zone for intercity transit of any kind. Improved GO train service is breath of fresh air because it allows a direct connection to Toronto, as well as to actual nearby cities (as opposed to the bustling metropolis of Aberfoyle, where the 25 passes through), and the Kitchener railway station has decent integration with local transit which will only improve over time.

Realistically, I think a number of temporary improvements could be made: perhaps a rationalization of all these Kitchener line bus-to-train routes in Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown, etc so you still had the peak direction commuter express going direct to Bramalea, but off-peak have a real Kitchener line bus making all the Kitchener line station stops. The business case identifies that Kitchener-Guelph is a big untapped market for example, and that's not an easy trip to make by bus with the transfer at Aberfoyle. It would also help with phasing in rail service. It couldn't compete with the express 25s for the student market in Waterloo, but it would help create more options for people in Kitchener, and would be a worthwhile alternative to just increasing the frequency of the 25, especially since so much of the 25's travel time is spent getting on and off the highway around Kitchener and Cambridge.

You really need both, because most students actually aren't going into Downtown toronto, rather they're going to North York, Scarborough, Mississauga, Brampton, Oakville, and Hamilton. Square one is a great place to connect, but it shouldn't be the only one. HWY 407, YYZ, and Kipling need to become bigger hubs for this type of service. Consolidate downtown riders on the GO trains, and in the meantime, expand 30 trips to UW.

There's so much potential for GO in KW, buses to London, Guelph, between Waterloo and Cambridge, to Brantford, and Hamilton. The new Kitchener Transit hub and UW can easily become huge GO terminals, with service being competitive for all types of commuters. Plus, they're connected on iON, so

 

[tmlittle]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean rationalizing the 25 routes so much as the 30, 31, etc that all connect to Bramalea and which aren't really as known or used as the GO train and 25s are. I think the 25 is a valid route in its own right, just that having it as the default intercity route going east isn't really ideal, and forcing people through Square One isn't that useful to most. I think TriTAG did an article on it a few years ago. I agree that the GTA is a likelier overall destination than downtown Toronto, especially since if we're looking at actually going to Toronto, Via is a more valid option price wise, and does have weekend service. What I'm more wishing is that Kitchener GO bus service wasn't so almost exclusively oriented around Square One, not least because it will be poor positioning for RER. Hurontario will help for sure. Your comments about Kipling, 407, and Pearson are exactly my thinking - this would give people more options and potentially cut out onerous transfers. 25F is a good start, but fulfils a Waterloo student niche. I think more attention being paid to the 30/31/33 and having a full route with stops to complement the Bramalea express, possibly in the form of an extended 31.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean rationalizing the 25 routes so much as the 30, 31, etc that all connect to Bramalea and which aren't really as known or used as the GO train and 25s are. I think the 25 is a valid route in its own right, just that having it as the default intercity route going east isn't really ideal, and forcing people through Square One isn't that useful to most. I think TriTAG did an article on it a few years ago. I agree that the GTA is a likelier overall destination than downtown Toronto, especially since if we're looking at actually going to Toronto, Via is a more valid option price wise, and does have weekend service. What I'm more wishing is that Kitchener GO bus service wasn't so almost exclusively oriented around Square One, not least because it will be poor positioning for RER. Hurontario will help for sure. Your comments about Kipling, 407, and Pearson are exactly my thinking - this would give people more options and potentially cut out onerous transfers. 25F is a good start, but fulfils a Waterloo student niche. I think more attention being paid to the 30/31/33 and having a full route with stops to complement the Bramalea express, possibly in the form of an extended 31.

I've heard rumours that the 25 will eventually be extended to Kipling Station from Square one once the new terminal is completed (with potentially new branches bypassing Square One altogether). This will probably be the best improvement yet outside of expanding 25F service to every day all day.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From the Globe:

Surge in suicides on GO Transit tracks highlights need for new prevention tactics

There have been 17 deaths by suicide on GO tracks so far in 2019. With six weeks left in the year, that toll is already more than twice as high as the annual average for the rest of the decade, and half again higher than the next worst year

www.theglobeandmail.com

They seem to have conflated two issues - suicide vs. trespassing.

AoD

 

[Neutrino]

^Any update on what happened at Oriole Stn recently?

 

[TheKingEast]

Would I be foolish to move to Richmond Hill? Taking either Bloomington or King City go? I heard King City is terrible.

 

[lenaitch]

From the Globe:

Surge in suicides on GO Transit tracks highlights need for new prevention tactics

There have been 17 deaths by suicide on GO tracks so far in 2019. With six weeks left in the year, that toll is already more than twice as high as the annual average for the rest of the decade, and half again higher than the next worst year

www.theglobeandmail.com

They seem to have conflated two issues - suicide vs. trespassing.

AoD

Perhaps, but from the carrier's point of view, trespassing is a consistent element and something they have a reasonable potential to mitigate. Are all trespassers suicidal? No. Were all (or the majority) of suicide victims trespassing? It seems so.