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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

Dan, with the schedules for LSW and LSE no longer in synch for mid-day, are the new runs all turn-backs at Union? OR are any through-runs?
They sync. 4 trains an hour on LSE and 3 trains an hour on LSW.

Of the four LSE trains, two run through to Aldershot, one (new) turns at Oakville, and the second (new) turns at Union. Westbound departures from Union at 13 and 43 minutes past the hour to Aldershot; 58 minutes past for Oakville and a 30-minute gap from 13 to 43.

Though the last new train westbound is at 12:58 - so it's back to 2 trains an hour until the rush-hour trains start at 3 pm.

Certainly a better deal on Lakeshore East, with no gap out of Union between 1 pm and 3 pm.
 
It is a bit odd to me that GO can operate Malton trains given that it is west of the junction with CN but I assume there is a quirk of track/switch location which makes this convenient rather than further west..
Isn’t Malton about a fair bit east of the junction with CN? The junction is just East of Bramalea, near where the tracks go under the 407.....no?
 
First part I was unaware of (based on my usage of the line, I wouldn't have guessed that freight trains would be running during peak times).

12-car train. -- 162 seated, 276 standees, 438 passengers/car, *12 cars = ~5,250 passengers/train. Although their design capacity is 360 passengers/car, with crush loads, it can easily carry 438 passengers/car. Even if we assume that lower value, we get 4,320 passengers/train. It's not 5,000, but much closer than "[nowhere] near 5,000 [passengers]."
My apologies, when you questioned the ability of two stations to fill a train, I had no idea the standard of “full” you were holding them to was 2.5X the seated capacity of a 12 car train.

If that is the standard we can start cancelling pretty much all of our non-event off peak service ;)
 
My apologies, when you questioned the ability of two stations to fill a train, I had no idea the standard of “full” you were holding them to was 2.5X the seated capacity of a 12 car train.

If that is the standard we can start cancelling pretty much all of our non-event off peak service ;)

Lol, the fact that we don't have a small dedicated DMU fleet (or low HP locomotive fleet) for off-peak trips really puzzles me since almost all the off peak trains are nearly empty. They're still needed and will take time to build ridership, but the level of service GO provides off peak is just overkill. Stagger the frequencies.
 
Interesting. That would certainly go a long way to clearing up the confusion. But note that no-one at QP or Metrolinx has clarified the facts on this, as maybe the Public don't have an issue with the claims, but some of us who follow these events do.

They seem to be quite content to let important details like this slide if it makes for a good sound bite.

I have noted (don't have link or reference handy) the claim (Aikins perhaps?) that (gist) "We are taking coaches from some trains to add to others". Again, questions to ask on that...is that a case of 'Robbing Peter to pay Paul'? And if that's logical to do now, why wasn't it in the past?

That was said, that that was done with the schedule changes done at the beginning of the month. Two of the trains from Kitchener are now 12-packs, for instance, and they did a bit of a swap between trainsets on the Barrie Line as well.

As for why they haven't said that in the past - well, they have, but they usually aren't so overt with it.

Hopefully we'll be reading an in-depth operational account of how the claims are being achieved. But there's no way around aspects being done in haste, if not panic: "I can't help but think that the press releases for this were simply added on to from the previous and not proof-read."

Concerning in itself...

Edit to Add: It could well be that the Metrolinx plan to increase service (which goes back prior to Ford conversion) which was well considered and tested was hijacked by this regime to 'squeeze every possible new run out of it'....contrary to best advice from middle managers who see the risk in making some runs timetable rigid whereas they deadheaded before, and were able to grab slots when they became available, not by schedule.

This whole thing was done in panic. Staff was not told that the testing was going to happen until less than a week before they started. They've basically implemented the plans that I first received back in March with no modifications. In fact, there is some serious concern that all of this is being done without having designed and tested any procedures for the event that service goes all pear-shaped. VIA's also got some concerns as well, as there is an almost certain inevitability that their trains will incur some minor delays on the two-track stretch between Pickering and Guildwood or even the rest of the way into Union.

While this whole thing has been planned for a very long time, there is still a very strong odor to this of someone up in the Ivory Tower trying to please someone even higher up. A lot of people are not happy with how it's been implemented.

Can it be viable to have two engines on the trains with 12 coaches and after arriving, they split off in opposite directions with 6 coaches each?

And with the locomotives at the east end of the trainsets, how does one then walk through the train? Nevermind the fact that doing so would cause the coupled train to exceed most of the station platforms....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
I’m not sure that loading to crush capacity is something GO should aspire to.

- Paul

It's shouldn't, but it's the current reality for peak commuter trains. We have to choose our rolling stock technology carefully, and more importantly, we have to run it properly.

To give some context, even if we assume that the current trains only carry 3000 Pas Max, a typical JR E233 EMU (the kinds used on the Keihin-Tohoku line in Japan) only can hold 160 passengers, half that of the bilevel (admittedly, it's shorter). For a 10 car train, that's 1,600 passengers. With LSW running near 5 minute frequencies with full trains at the height of the peak hours, we must ask ourselves how we will schedule trains so that we don't lose capacity while still using EMUs and anticipating growth.
 
Lol, the fact that we don't have a small dedicated DMU fleet (or low HP locomotive fleet) for off-peak trips really puzzles me since almost all the off peak trains are nearly empty. They're still needed and will take time to build ridership, but the level of service GO provides off peak is just overkill. Stagger the frequencies.

I'm guessing it's the same reason why YRT doesn't run minibuses on its fixed routes...the main expense is the cost of the operator/s, so while empty trains/buses look bad, running smaller vehicles won't save that much money.
 
It's shouldn't, but it's the current reality for peak commuter trains. We have to choose our rolling stock technology carefully, and more importantly, we have to run it properly.

To give some context, even if we assume that the current trains only carry 3000 Pas Max, a typical JR E233 EMU (the kinds used on the Keihin-Tohoku line in Japan) only can hold 160 passengers, half that of the bilevel (admittedly, it's shorter). For a 10 car train, that's 1,600 passengers. With LSW running near 5 minute frequencies with full trains at the height of the peak hours, we must ask ourselves how we will schedule trains so that we don't lose capacity while still using EMUs and anticipating growth.

You can't run everything at the 100% of maximum rated capacity, as people simply would not be able to get on and off of the equipment at station stops.

By the way, I'm fairly certain that the "160 passengers" number that JR uses for those EMUs is some "random" metric that they've designed to allow them to run a reliable service. Just like how the TTC says that the maximum of a TR train is 1100 passengers, even though they can carry about 2400. Or how GO says that a BiLevel is rated for 162 passengers, even though they can carry far more.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
I'm guessing it's the same reason why YRT doesn't run minibuses on its fixed routes...the main expense is the cost of the operator/s, so while empty trains/buses look bad, running smaller vehicles won't save that much money.

In the world of public transit, it still doesn't make much sense. A bus uses relatively little fuel when compared to the drivers costs (0.75 L/km lets say), however, a locomotive uses about 3 gallons of fuel per mile (~7 L/km). When you're providing so much HEP and traction power for a train that doesn't need it, it makes you wonder whether the costs of running that train at such a loss are worth it.
 
You can't run everything at the 100% of maximum rated capacity, as people simply would not be able to get on and off of the equipment at station stops.

By the way, I'm fairly certain that the "160 passengers" number that JR uses for those EMUs is some "random" metric that they've designed to allow them to run a reliable service. Just like how the TTC says that the maximum of a TR train is 1100 passengers, even though they can carry about 2400. Or how GO says that a BiLevel is rated for 162 passengers, even though they can carry far more.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Absolutely not, the point is that the capacity is there just in case. In the case of peak-traffic, everyone tends to be getting off at one location, so crush loading isn't an issue (and I was initially referring to a peak train, so meh).

To be fair, JR regularly runs their trains at at least 3* their maximum rated train capacity (I've been on trains where there are at least 400 people to a car) and still runs them with reliable service (and this is for RER service), however, I doubt Canadians and train operators have the patience or the willingness to operate trains at capacities greater than the set capacity, it's just too crowded for their tastes.
 
Staff was not told that the testing was going to happen until less than a week before they started.
That's beyond reckless. Murphy's Law is almost inevitably invoked. Doubtless it must have weighed heavily on middle management and supervisors.

In fact, there is some serious concern that all of this is being done without having designed and tested any procedures for the event that service goes all pear-shaped. VIA's also got some concerns as well, as there is an almost certain inevitability that their trains will incur some minor delays on the two-track stretch between Pickering and Guildwood or even the rest of the way into Union.
All it will take is one equipment malfunction, a frozen door, jammed switch, and if the signal and control system is up against design capabilities, it'll all go down like dominoes. One only hopes that they have contingencies in place, one of which might be to simply go back to the former timetable where performance was predictable and proven. There's a built-in buffer to allow for the unexpected, within reason.

While this whole thing has been planned for a very long time, there is still a very strong odor to this of someone up in the Ivory Tower trying to please someone even higher up. A lot of people are not happy with how it's been implemented.
The real shame about this is that was probably a very well-thought and planned 'next stage' that GO had been working on.

I suspect the 'inside story' will leak out from some disgruntled employees, maybe even to the axed execs who may have peccadilloes of their own, but even Il Duce (Del Duca) didn't mess with the operations side.

This is going to go very wrong, and then the finger-pointing begins. When I see the two former deadheads from Union to Mimico being pressed into a schedule for no discernible reason other than to add coloured bars to the timetable, I see trouble squared. And those were just the easy ones to see from a glance, there must be a lot more.

This could have been incrementally implemented for many of the added routes, and worked well once the glitches had been programmed out. I fear the wrong people are going to get blamed...again.

Edit to Add: Just going back to 'read between the lines' and this cued a new thought: (Harvesting underutilized coaches from other sets to add to the highest demand ones)
As for why they haven't said that in the past - well, they have, but they usually aren't so overt with it.
Let me project: 'Because the political imperative wasn't as demanding/desperate before'.

I'm going to cut a little slack to Yakabuski, although God knows why, I haven't seen any honourable moves from anyone in this regime, just double-talk and mirrors...but perhaps he too is a victim in this. He believed the hype (gist: "GO is protected, we'll do everything the Libs promised and more) and then found out he had nothing to work with. I can understand a tight budget, but to not put *something* towards incremental infrastructure improvements to make a number of situations work a lot better is just bad management, even if you're broke.

Not buying detergent to do your washing is hardly a saving. And the mime is "This won't cost us anything". That's the chant of a cult headed to suicide.

Frugal, yes, absolutely, a lot was being wasted prior. But you don't turn off all the drinking water because one tap was leaking.

So who's the first to walk? Yakabuski? He's set himself up to be tripped if he doesn't.
 
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I know that LW will see service each way every 20 minutes but LE will see service every. I thought LW was the busier of the 2?

Also I don't understand where ML is getting all the money for this. GO has increased service over the last 3 years but ridership is only up about 9% which isn't much considering the population of the GTA has grown by 6.5%...……..hardly keeping up with population growth and considering the huge amount of increase of off-peak service provision, that's pretty bad. What makes them think this will make much difference? Also, seeing GO gets about 75% of it's revenue from fares, how are they affording this MUCH lower ridership non-peak/weekend services?

I'm not saying the potential demand isn't there but the cost of GO is ridiculous so until they bring the fares down to a reasonable level and have, at a minimum, full fare integration I don't see why they think ridership will increase any faster than it has been.
 
This whole thing was done in panic. Staff was not told that the testing was going to happen until less than a week before they started. They've basically implemented the plans that I first received back in March with no modifications. In fact, there is some serious concern that all of this is being done without having designed and tested any procedures for the event that service goes all pear-shaped. VIA's also got some concerns as well, as there is an almost certain inevitability that their trains will incur some minor delays on the two-track stretch between Pickering and Guildwood or even the rest of the way into Union.

While this whole thing has been planned for a very long time, there is still a very strong odor to this of someone up in the Ivory Tower trying to please someone even higher up. A lot of people are not happy with how it's been implemented.

Putting a few pence together.... I don’t believe we have seen an award to any of the RFP’s to add the third/fourth track projects for the LSE. The RFP’s have closed, but it’s the new government that will have to commit, and those contracts must be just about ready to award.
The obvious question that an incoming financial/budget analyst type would ask before signing off is - how much capacity remains today? Is it all used up? Why should we commit to adding more when you aren’t even using what you have?

My conspiracy theory is that GO might need to prove the line is ‘full’ to overcome the line by line budget review. Which is lousy long term planning, but the new guys aren’t in this to plan.

- Paul
 

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