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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

I know that LW will see service each way every 20 minutes but LE will see service every. I thought LW was the busier of the 2?
Yes, but it is also the more constrained corridor in certain ways -- given the large number of services that head in that corridor.

The asymmetry shows that a lot more infrastructure work is needed to reliably accomplish 15-min from Aldershot thru Oshawa.

This is not a useless exercise -- even if there is little ridership increase yet, the learning experience of operating this many trains on constrained corridors will be good for the new operations centre in the future of metro-frequency GO service. The more frequent lowerings of crossing gates from 15-minute service will also prioritize grade separations (Which Ford likes). A bunch of pre-requisites are going to be covered.

Back in 2013, the annual operating cost increment of going from 60min to 30min was approximately three-quarters of a million dollars (~$750K IIRC and the activation of just one or two additional trainsets). While I don't know the cost to go from 30min to 15min, keep in mind it's only for 12 hours a weekday rather than all day. In other words, this probably managed to squeeze into squeezed into the existing Metrolinx annual operating budget.

I suspect there was a tough decision on "Do we deploy this incompletely-optimized service now?" or "Do we wait until we build up enough infrastructure to add 15-minute all-day 7-day from Aldershot-to-Oshawa?"

I think the former may actually have been necessary to indicate the amount of work we still need to do to make the corridors ready for bare minimum "metro-league" frequencies of 15min-or-better.

Some deadheads are pretty odd. But turning them into revenue trains would work well as long as we also massively improved the GO signage to more know which train stops at which stations.
 
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Absolutely not, the point is that the capacity is there just in case. In the case of peak-traffic, everyone tends to be getting off at one location, so crush loading isn't an issue (and I was initially referring to a peak train, so meh).

To be fair, JR regularly runs their trains at at least 3* their maximum rated train capacity (I've been on trains where there are at least 400 people to a car) and still runs them with reliable service (and this is for RER service), however, I doubt Canadians and train operators have the patience or the willingness to operate trains at capacities greater than the set capacity, it's just too crowded for their tastes.

The E233 series cars are 65 feet long - about 10 feet shorter than our subway cars - and at 9'8" wide, 6 inches narrower. And their seating configuration of all of the seats facing inwards allows for a slightly denser figure for standees than our cars.

And JR rates their capacity at 160 people per car? That doesn't sound that far off of the TTC's rated capacity of a TR, which is about 180 people per car. Considering, you know, the additional length of our subways.

So yeah, that figure is a completely arbitrary number that JR uses to maintain capacity, flexibility and operations. Just like the TTC, and GO.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
The obvious question that an incoming financial/budget analyst type would ask before signing off is - how much capacity remains today? Is it all used up? Why should we commit to adding more when you aren’t even using what you have?

My conspiracy theory is that GO might need to prove the line is ‘full’ to overcome the line by line budget review. Which is lousy long term planning, but the new guys aren’t in this to plan.
This relates to a point you raised some weeks back as per the Unionville service AD2W, and the lack of a dedicated running track west from Scarbro Jnctn. An accountant type with no background in rail service efficacy would just flat out state that service can't begin, whereas a *railway savvy accountant* would state: "Contingent on terminating the trains at Scarborough Station during off-peak, and with 15 min service on LSE with very low loads, this can work well and save operating costs as well as the cost of a large infrastructure investment which can happen later".

There must be a number of situations where changing trains allows offering much wider service at a reasonable cost. Too many GO passengers have been sold on a 'single ride from start to finish'. You can't find that on the TTC, and it's rare on regional transit systems.

The more frequent lowerings of crossing gates from 15-minute service will also prioritize grade separations (Which Ford likes).
I wouldn't be so sure of Ford's willingness to cough up a provincial share of grade separation. The Feds are required to doing so, and since it is a provincially owned railway, so would the province be, but grade separation is pricey. Necessary? Absolutely, but Ford won't see it that way. I might be proven wrong, but his 'base' would consider it bowing to the rail Satan.

I suspect there was a tough decision on "Do we deploy this incompletely-optimized service now?" or "Do we wait until we build up enough infrastructure to add 15-minute all-day 7-day from Aldershot-to-Oshawa?"

I don't know if anyone else caught this last night? https://tvo.org/video/programs/the-agenda-with-steve-paikin/an-end-of-the-line-at-metrolinx

Pritchard is due his share of criticism, don't get me wrong, but he acquitted himself brilliantly in diplomatic answers in this interview. He stood his ground on a number of points that Ford has gotten himself into. As satisfying as the interview was (and Paikin was his usual excellent self) one is left craving for even more answers as to 'how it all works, and what actually happened?' I think they will come out eventually.

And that's hinted at by @smallspy 's inside comments. If things get really ham-fisted, some of the talent they rely on to move things forward in a rational and meaningful way will up and quit. I suspect there's deep-pockets looking to do P3 transit/railway projects looking to hire.

And speaking of "conspiracy" (@crs1026 ) ...here's one, albeit I'm not saying this to be the *conscious* case, but unwitting: It's intended for Metrolinx to slowly self-destruct from the inside so it can be sold off piecemeal to the private sector.

Too fantastic? One only has to look at the UK to see where it got them from blindly believing in rabid 'laissez-faire dogma', (I believe P3 is the answer, but only by default) and a new cycle is about to begin again, even though the last two generations have been a disaster.

Ontario is becoming difficult to govern from the Centre, and some of our most effective institutions may/will pay the price.
 
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The E233 series cars are 65 feet long - about 10 feet shorter than our subway cars - and at 9'8" wide, 6 inches narrower. And their seating configuration of all of the seats facing inwards allows for a slightly denser figure for standees than our cars.

And JR rates their capacity at 160 people per car? That doesn't sound that far off of the TTC's rated capacity of a TR, which is about 180 people per car. Considering, you know, the additional length of our subways.

So yeah, that figure is a completely arbitrary number that JR uses to maintain capacity, flexibility and operations. Just like the TTC, and GO.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

They run on narrow gauge track, so the actual surface area of the trains is about 1/4 that of the T1s/TRs. (78.5 m^2 vs 59 m^2). Given that the TTC rates the maximum capacity of the T1s to be 1,100 PPT (~185 PPC), a difference of 25 passengers seems about fair.

Again, I agree the number is arbitrary, however, it is a metric for determining crowding, and it's fair to say that we must pick our rolling stock fairly, considering that single level EMUs (which I honestly want to see GO use) carry fewer passengers than Bi-Level trains, frequencies will have to be adjusted accordingly and Metrolinx should buy enough rolling stock that the capacity of the system doesn't decrease with electrification.
 
accordingly and Metrolinx should buy enough rolling stock that the capacity of the system doesn't decrease with electrification.
You're completely missing another very important factor: Throughput. And one of the factors of throughput is the the number of loads/unloads per time to allow more passengers being delivered per vehicle per time between stops.

There's a reason that single deck for short haul is preferable, and with many doors and wide ones, and that acceleration and deceleration rates are higher. It's to get more passengers between stops at a higher rate, such that less passengers per car actually means a greater capacity per time between stops for the overall system capacity.

Can't remember if it was you or another poster that @Urban Sky explained this to some weeks back. In Europe (and some other regions) DD is used for outer regional use, since capacity carried onboard is static for a much longer time, and so dwell time at stops is only a small fraction of the overall time between stops. For RER, it leans towards single decker with more doors, albeit the Paris RER is DD but with extra doors in the middle of the coaches, an arrangement unlikely in Toronto's case. Sydney is now moving to single deck from double deck for exactly the reason of minimizing station dwell time.

I'll look for a link on this, as I'm not explaining this well.

Addendum: Scanned a number of articles, and many remain deep in contention, but Melbourne is an excellent analog, not least because of the *metro* thinking rather than 'heavy rail' terminology, and the move of both Melbourne and Sydney (which was typically DD) towards *metro*: (Metro EMUs are often fully mainline compatible, which GO will require, temporally separated freight being a given)(Montreal's REM isn't)
The metro tunnel will cater for single deck trains only

Posted onWed 18 November 2015AuthorDaniel18 Comments

PTV Network Development Plan – Metropolitan Rail

— I’ve blogged about this plan when it was released.

Upgrades such as the Melbourne Metro Rail Tunnel and the new fleet of trains tie into this plan, and complement each other: the tunnel and its stations will be designed for the longer trains that the new fleet will deliver.

Here’s one snippet of information I had been asked about, and was wondering about, but was able to confirm with the project team recently: The metro rail tunnel will NOT be built to cater for double deck trains.

Obviously long tunnels are expensive. A decision has to be made about their size, and the smaller the better. In this case, they are not willing to invest the extra cost for provision for possible future double deck trains.

We’ve tried double deck trains before
The City Loop does cater for them. In the 70s when it was built, there were no definite plans for double deck trains (Hitachi trains were coming into service at the time), but they were considering it for the future.

A trial of a double deck train (the Federally funded “4D” — Double Deck Development and Demonstration Train) was done in the 1990s. Here it is in operation at Parliament:
[pics at link]

It was modelled and based on Sydney’s double deck trains, but seemed to have continual reliability problems. It mainly ran on the Belgrave and Lilydale lines, but some other lines had the requisite bridge clearances. No doubt if a further rollout was planned, more bridges would have been modified.

Reliability aside, the authorities decided that such trains were not the way of the future. No more were built. The train was eventually sold to RailCorp NSW for spare parts, and scrapped in 2006.

The policy of staying single-deck is, when you look around, reasonably obvious: the recently rebuilt Springvale station doesn’t have a lot of space to spare above our current single deck trains.

[...]
Is single deck or double deck better?
Arguments about this will rage forever I suspect, but there are pros and cons to each.

For a higher carrying capacity, single deck trains need to be longer, providing more doors, and theoretically faster loading and unloading. Faster loading means you can push more trains down the line, and helps counter some or all the capacity benefits of double deck.

Longer trains have an obvious cost: longer platforms and it may have other impacts such as on signalling and stabling. This is where Melbourne is going — the new fleet will start at 7 cars and extend to 9 or 10.

Double deck trains have higher capacity for the length — about 50% more. But they are obviously higher, meaning some existing tunnels and bridges need modification (which may or may not be practical) and extra cost when building new track, especially tunnels.

The power-to-weight ratio of the train could be an issue. Double deck trains obviously concentrate a lot more weight per carriage, while single deck trains that spread the load out over more carriages and wheel sets may assist good acceleration.

Some people will cite security issues, as the decks mean it’s not possible to look along the length of the train. Some also cite risks with level crossings, as the lower deck is vulnerable to a motor vehicle impact, though I’m not sure if that risk has been quantified.

Most cities have stuck with single deck for their high-capacity, short trip urban and metro networks, though the Paris RER is a prominent example of double deck high-capacity suburban operation, and they’ve designed double deck carriages with a third doorway, presumably at the cost of capacity. But I’m not sure any new lines or networks are being designed for double deck operation.

A number of European countries including Belgium, the Netherlands and Switzerland use them, but primarily for longer distances, where dwell times are less important.

NSW is moving to single deck for their new metro line. Meanwhile the UK is considering double deck for its commuter lines (eg NOT the Tube, which has tunnels that are very space-constrained).

No double deck for you!
The metro tunnel decision means for better or worse, Melbourne is sticking with single deck.

I don’t have a major problem with this.

It’d be nice to see the findings from the 90s trial out in public, but as long as the reasons for the decision have been thought through, carefully considered, and are understood, the focus can be on optimising the network for single deck operation.
https://www.danielbowen.com/2015/11/18/metro-tunnel-single-deck-only/

Here's per Sydney, an interior video up on the site linked:
Sydney unveils new single deck and driverless trains
WHERE are the stairs? Commuters won’t recognise these new Sydney trains after a dramatic overhaul that includes one deck and no driver.
[...]
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s/news-story/794e16114205bc10769a09c5d9e0f345

[...]
Unlike the current fleet (which is designed to quickly configure trains as 3 or 6 cars), these will have no intermediate cabs. Walk through access all the way along, as seen on trains in places such as Hong Kong.

And yes, they definitely want them single deck, not double deck. (Check this ABC Fact Check from last year for some good material on the debate around capacity.)

Acceleration of at least 1.1 metres per second squared up to 35 km/h (but not greater than 1.3). Similar braking speeds. Maximum speed 130 km/h. One of the benefits of running a single type of train on the Dandenong line is to maximise throughput/capacity.
[...]
https://www.danielbowen.com/2015/07/01/next-gen-trains/
 
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Can't remember if it was you or another poster that @Urban Sky explained this to some weeks back. In Europe (and some other regions) DD is used for outer regional use, since capacity carried onboard is static for a much longer time, and so dwell time at stops is only a small fraction of the overall time between stops. For RER, it leans towards single decker with more doors, albeit the Paris RER is DD but with extra doors in the middle of the coaches, an arrangement unlikely in Toronto's case. Sydney is now moving to single deck from double deck for exactly the reason of minimizing station dwell time.

I'll look for a link on this, as I'm not explaining this well.

Here it is (from the Toronto-Kitchener-London HSR thread):

Passenger rail (in any metropolitan context) is therefore best understood as a pyramid, with RER at the bottom, followed by Inter-Regional, then Inter-City rail and with HSR on the top, where passenger volume decreases the higher you get to the top, while average distance travelled increases. And like with all pyramids, every level is built on top of the next-lower level, while acting as foundation for the next-higher level...

Once, you create a clear distinction between RER (i.e. all-stop and high frequency service along a core network) and Inter-Regional (i.e. a lower frequency service with limited stops within the RER network and all-stop beyond), both train service groups will become significantly easier to understand - be it in Paris, Toronto or anywhere else where such a distinction is not yet made...

Different services of course need different fleets, as these two representative rolling stock types show:
topelement_zoomable_S-Bahn-Zugskombinationen-01.jpg

Bi-level trains allow Inter-Regional trains to maximise the number of passengers seated, but at the expense of longer dwell times at stations, while single-level trains with many doors allow RER trains to minimize station dwell times, but at the expense of offering less passengers a seat...
 
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Hey so I was trying to help my sister with using the GO train system (she asked me if she could take the Lakeshore East Line west past union (technically Lakeshore West) and if she needed to change trains.

I was about to say no they run through, until I realized, that the schedules were just changed yesterday for the increased service, and some trains now apparently won't run through.

It turns out the train she wanted to take did indeed continue through to Lakeshore West, however, I noticed something on the schedules I dont remember seeing before:

https://www.gotransit.com/static_fi...g/FullSchedules/01092018/24092018/Table09.pdf

CZNDlwy.png

DZzvwqd.png


Excuse me if I misunderstand, but are these reverse-peak express trains that only go from Union to Oshawa, making no stops inbetween?

Apologies if this is not new. I certainly did not know about them.
 
^ Yes, because I believe these were previously deadhead trips. Also, I'm confused why the PDF doesn't list what "Exception 1" and "Exception 2" are...

Great. They should do this for all deadheads.

I am going to make great use of that 19:00 express westbound.
 
Damn, 45 minutes Oshawa to Union. Most days I can't get downtown from North York in under an hour.

The ViaRail does it in 29 minutes.

Its also $22 one way though. Cheaper with commuter pass though.

And you have to buy a ticket for each trip in advance. Even with commuter pass. Cant just tap and hop on. If the train is sold out, youre SOL. No standing.
 
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I know that LW will see service each way every 20 minutes ...
It's not every 20 on LW. It's 15, 15, 30.

But also with some huge gaps. For example, check out the new westbound Port Credit to Union minischedule. The new trains are marked with an E.

The last westbound mid-day train is 12:58 pm from Union. So really it's back to half-hourly all afternoon (and evening). All they've added is 5 new westbound trains (that only run to Oakville).

upload_2018-9-25_17-17-16.png


Eastbound is similar, with 5 new eastbound trains, but the first is 10:28 AM, and the last at 2:26 pm.
upload_2018-9-25_17-20-30.png


I thought LW was the busier of the 2?
It is. And yet (looking at Eglinton GO for example) there's 11 new eastbound trains, and 9 new westbound trains on Lakeshore East. Still though, the last westbound leaves Union at 2:02 pm, leaving service hourly until 3 pm - which I thought would be perhaps the busiest mid-day hour of westbound service. Though it almost fills the gaps.

Progress I suppose - though all rather odd.

upload_2018-9-25_17-26-27.png


upload_2018-9-25_17-26-43.png


Also I don't understand where ML is getting all the money for this. GO has increased service over the last 3 years but ridership is only up about 9% which isn't much considering the population of the GTA has grown by 6.5%...
How much is Lakeshore ridership up though? I was quite surprised the other weekend, with hourly service on Lakeshore East, just how packed the train was. I've never seen a GO train with so many people standing heading into Union. Ridership was definitely significantly higher than it was for similar weekends 4-5 years ago, when hourly trains were the norm, rather than the exception.

Build it and they will come? Perhaps the latent demand is even more than I thought.
 

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Re: induced demand. Parking's going to be a biiitch. Last weekend, I spent 20 minutes exiting a parking garage downtown at midnight after an event. I now know why people run for their cars at the GO garages.
 
Need to catch a GO bus at Richmond Hill Centre today. Do they service Langstaff GO or RHC Terminal?
 

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