GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[dowlingm]

Very interesting discussion on the GO-Amtrak connection in Niagara Falls. What about the potential of having the Canadian station host both Canadian and US border patrol?

Build a new platform to the north of the existing station (servicing the north track, call it Platform 2), and have that platform be the controlled customs area, accessible only by tunnel between the platform and the main station building. Have the inbound Amtrak train stop in Niagara Falls NY to let off the American passengers, and then cross the river to let off the Canadian passengers on Platform 2, who would then go through Canadian customs. Once they've cleared customs, they would walk out onto Platform 1 and get on a GO train.

For outbound Amtrak trips, there would be a US border preclearance station there, where once they've gone through it, they could pass through the tunnel and board on Platform 2. The train would then depart, and pick up US passengers on the other side of the river. In the outbound case, the passport control is done shortly before the train even arrives, so there's no delay at the border.

This is my opinion also. Truncating Maple Leaf but extending the other two Empire Service trains would save Amtrak a bunch of track time on their equipment, create three rail connections a day between NYC and Toronto, and would pass responsibility for clearing customs and the Welland Canal in time to the passenger, while not going the Montreal/Vancouver approach which would bypass all the communities between Union and the border including Niagara (preclearance at Union).

 

[raptor]

Not sure what the best thread is for this, but the Feds just announced they are providing money for 53 bi-level coaches. News release here. $93 million provided. "These 53 coaches are part of a larger order of 125 coaches. The first vehicle delivery is expected later this year."

Do we really need more bi-levels or is it a bone thrown to the good people of Thunder Bay?

 

[smallspy]

Do we really need more bi-levels or is it a bone thrown to the good people of Thunder Bay?

Well, considering that a good dozen of those 125 additional cars are already on hand and in service, my guess is yes, they are needed.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So that is what, four 12 car trains and a 10 car train once they are paired with an end car?

 

[raptor]

Well, considering that a good dozen of those 125 additional cars are already on hand and in service, my guess is yes, they are needed.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Speaking of which, those new seats are awful, extremely uncomfortable.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Do we really need more bi-levels or is it a bone thrown to the good people of Thunder Bay?

Yes, for replacement of older cars which are nearing 50 years old. They also serve as stopgaps while EMUs are ordered. After electrification, these cars will be used on lines like the milton line, Richmond hill line (which both are to see significant expansion (2-3 trains each, probably even more), as well as on all express services (Kitchener, Lincolnville, Oshawa, Hamilton, etc all heading into Union), the new Niagra falls line, the Bowmanville line, and maybe even the bolton/midtown lines if they're ever acquired.

Speaking of which, those new seats are awful, extremely uncomfortable.

They are, the entire layout is horrendous. No electric charging ports on many new trains, no overhead racks (I don't even get why, it would save so much space on the train), the terrible seating layout that wastes space under the seats and legroom, the lack of reclinable seats (but this one is less important), etc.

 

[APTA-2048]

Yes, for replacement of older cars which are nearing 50 years old. They also serve as stopgaps while EMUs are ordered. After electrification, these cars will be used on lines like the milton line, Richmond hill line (which both are to see significant expansion (2-3 trains each, probably even more), as well as on all express services (Kitchener, Lincolnville, Oshawa, Hamilton, etc all heading into Union), the new Niagra falls line, the Bowmanville line, and maybe even the bolton/midtown lines if they're ever acquired.


They are, the entire layout is horrendous. No electric charging ports on many new trains, no overhead racks (I don't even get why, it would save so much space on the train), the terrible seating layout that wastes space under the seats and legroom, the lack of reclinable seats (but this one is less important), etc.

All the new and refurbished cars have power sockets.
When I rode the LIRR, I didn't care for the overhead racks. They got in the way and made things look cluttered. I don't know how you think it saves space. Put you bags and parcels under your seat.

I'm my opinion, the Bombardier Bilevel is one the most comfortable commuter cars I've been on.

 

[TOareaFan]

They are, the entire layout is horrendous. No electric charging ports on many new trains, no overhead racks (I don't even get why, it would save so much space on the train), the terrible seating layout that wastes space under the seats and legroom, the lack of reclinable seats (but this one is less important), etc.

I guess it depends on how you sit.....I actually find the new seats more comfortable than the older ones.....but I guess that is just a personal thing......but on the luggage thing I agree.....we are already seeing it on the Kitchener line....more and more we are seeing large suitcases on the train with people getting off at Weston to switch to UP and head into Pearson.....with nowhere to store them what is happening is that the owner of the suitcase takes on of the two aisle seats...puts their suitcase in between the two window seats and, effectively, turns a 4 person seating area into a 2 person area.

The alterantive is to put the suitcase in the aisles which is a nightmare considering that rush hour trains on that line are now standing room only leaving Brampton...so there is still 3 pretty busy stations for people to get on before getting to Weston...and those people all have to (it seems) move down the upper and lower aisle, at least, one time before confirming that, just like every other day, their commute to work is a standing one....and suitcases blocking the aisles make a mess of that flow.

It would be nice, as we move to integrate Pearson more into our transit system, that the vehicle design/layout recognizes that a Pearson passenger is typically carrying more "stuff" than a Union bound commuter.

 

[felix123]

If Kipling is ever a choke point as a terminal station, we have much bigger problems to worry about. And there's no way RER on the Milton line is in place by the time the ATC resignalling begins on Line 2.

Adding a stop at Bloor would ultimately save a handful of people a few minutes, while adding a few minutes to the commute of a much larger group. Based on what we saw with similar proposed stops on other lines, if you were to model it out, I can pretty well guarantee that you would lose riders overall. I get why it appeals to people -- there's a well-connected station that it literally passes through already -- but between the cost and the limited actual benefit, we'd be better off spending the money elsewhere.

By the time it's complete, even after having selected a supplier, resignalling of line 1 will have taken 10 years. On the same timeline, line 2 will be done in 2029-2030. Hopefully the project is completed sooner, but I don't imagine that shuttle buses running from Kipling will be a great option.

I can understand your concerns about cost, but if I were to name the foremost Achilles' heel on the TTC, never mind connecting from TTC to regional transit, I would say it's the rather insane number of transfers required on a very high number of trajectories within the city. The number of transfers matter more than a 30 second stop and additional 2-3 minute trip time to Union when the goal is to get otherwise-drivers to take transit. I suppose the question in all of this is, why is it that in the GTA we would not allow transfers on trunk line stations, unlike every other city with suburban rail/S-Bahn? What makes the GTA different?

 

[rbt]

By the time it's complete, even after having selected a supplier, resignalling of line 1 will have taken 10 years. On the same timeline, line 2 will be done in 2029-2030.

The Line 1 timeline includes quite a bit of common infrastructure like the central office, monitoring, reporting, and staff training (how to replace/repair, etc. the system). Not to mention effort proving that the system actually works as advertised by the vendor. This all adds quite a bit to the effort.


Line 2 will go much faster; still a multi-year project but closer to 4 or 5 than 10. That said, it may be a few years before we raise the funds to issue the tender and all bets are off if we wait so long that the Line 1 system is considered out of date before issuing Line 2 tenders.

 

[torontocolin]

The existing planned RER lines won't be complete until 2025. For Milton to be added to that list, they need to negotiate a deal with CP which would likely require building the "missing link" bypass. You think they'll have that done and have sufficiently upgraded the corridor to run 15 minute weekend service before 2030?

The only people who will have a transfer added are the people who are travelling within walking distance of Bloor/Dundas West station or those looking to board the local routes from Dundas West station. That's not likely to be a huge number of people, and an even smaller number of them will refuse to take transit unless the extra transfer is removed.

Also, the models are pretty clear that even a few minutes of delay can have a significant impact on upstream riders on regional services. The benefits just don't justify the cost. And I say that as someone who lives within walking distance of Bloor/Dundas West station!

 

[Northern Light]

https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-with-us/promotions-and-events/barrie-line-trains
Looks like GO is trying to increase weekend ridership on the Barrie line. It's not a bad idea actually. Likely close to revenue neutral compared to using a group pass, but "kids ride free" is more immediately positive sounding.

So, Phil Verster answered a question on this at tonight's town hall.

He said Barrie is being done as a business case test project.

IF, the 12 and under is free generates enough new trips to pay for itself, it will be rolled out, if not, it will be rolled back.

 

[Garuda]

I guess it depends on how you sit.....I actually find the new seats more comfortable than the older ones.....but I guess that is just a personal thing......but on the luggage thing I agree.....we are already seeing it on the Kitchener line....more and more we are seeing large suitcases on the train with people getting off at Weston to switch to UP and head into Pearson.....with nowhere to store them what is happening is that the owner of the suitcase takes on of the two aisle seats...puts their suitcase in between the two window seats and, effectively, turns a 4 person seating area into a 2 person area.

I'll admit, I'm one of those blokes hulling luggage on the GO train at rush hour. I live and work in Guelph and live walking distance to Guelph Central. It's much more convenient for me change trains at Weston than to drive when I can time a flight or connect with a VIA train to Montreal or Ottawa in the morning. When I'm travelling with a carry on, I will lay it on the ground but once the train fills up (always at Mount Pleasant) I rest the carry on my lap so everyone has a seat.

Two years ago I actually travelled with my snowboard (in a bag). I sat at the lower level close to the door that opens to Weston station. Keeping the bag vertical to minimize passenger disruption (at the expense of my own comfort) I was able to easily change trains at Weston and travel to Pearson.

If there was an early morning premium service (like HSR or VIA) I would gladly take those options. For now, VIA does not accept snowboards or bikes as luggage. This is a issue that is going to poke at GO. I'm sure they've already had some complaints.

 

[felix123]

The existing planned RER lines won't be complete until 2025. For Milton to be added to that list, they need to negotiate a deal with CP which would likely require building the "missing link" bypass. You think they'll have that done and have sufficiently upgraded the corridor to run 15 minute weekend service before 2030?

The only people who will have a transfer added are the people who are travelling within walking distance of Bloor/Dundas West station or those looking to board the local routes from Dundas West station. That's not likely to be a huge number of people, and an even smaller number of them will refuse to take transit unless the extra transfer is removed.

Also, the models are pretty clear that even a few minutes of delay can have a significant impact on upstream riders on regional services. The benefits just don't justify the cost. And I say that as someone who lives within walking distance of Bloor/Dundas West station!

This still doesn't answer the question of why the GTA should not make use of the obvious rail connections that nearly all other cities with RER or even just 2WAD type systems take for granted.

Although I disagree with your opinions on interline connectivity, I would be interested to know what your ideal GO system looks like.

 

[torontocolin]

It's pretty standard with those international systems that not all lines stop at all stations. They need to balance connectivity with services that are fast enough to be worth using. It's the same reason Metrolinx spiked the idea of a St Clair station on the Barrie line.

My ideal GO network balances connectivity with trip generators and maximum efficiency. I'd be much more inclined to argue for a theoretical Milton line RER stop at Liberty Village for that reason. I think there are way more riders who might want to get from Milton/Mississauga to Liberty Village/King West than from Milton/Mississauga to Dundas West, particularly when the Kipling connection already exists. If Kipling station didn't exist, then sure, build a platform at Bloor, but it does.

Build stations that will be heavily used and generate new riders. Don't build stations because they look good on a map.