GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

Interesting to learn. I wonder what the nature of the discussions is? Local switching for the industries? My experience is that GO has been using the south side platform for several years now so I'm surprised (but by no means an expert or in the industry) that they have to talk each day. Would it be at a CN Rail Traffic Control to GO Rail Traffic Control level as opposed to between the higher ups at CN and Metrolinx? Just curious. Also, I wonder if this is the case for the Milton Line and the portion of Lakeshore West where there are freight movements and local switching.

If you are talking about operating the existing trains - GO has an "operations center" at Union Station. It's the precursor of what will emerge at Oakville, except that at the moment the control of trains is handled by CP and CN from their dispatching centers. The GO Ops staff deal with everything from stalled trains to medical emergencies to what track Train X will use if it's late and has lost its original slot. They have overview screens that show the track layout and the positions of trains, etc.... effectively looking over the CN/CP dispatchers' shoulders. They are on the phones every few minutes with the railways. But.....all that is operational, none of it has effect beyond getting today's trains over the road.

I have no inside info on the higher level 'negotiations' - but no negotiation that I know of goes on day after day after day with no end in sight. Possibly there is study of the bypass route going on, and there are people working jointly on that.... but that's not negotiation either, not in the important sense.

My conclusion - if you want to know what's going on at ML (or any other company), the last person to ask is their spokesperson.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

I have no inside info on the higher level 'negotiations' - but no negotiation that I know of goes on day after day after day with no end in sight. Possibly there is study of the bypass route going on, and there are people working jointly on that.... but that's not negotiation either, not in the important sense.

Sometimes daily negotiations are more about ensuring due diligence timelines don't slip than argument about the finer details.

P1: "Hi, it's X. Is your legal team still on schedule to review document X by friday?"
P2: "Yes"
P1: "Great, I'm still expecting proposal Y on Monday. The authors suggest you will need 14 days from team N to review. "
P2: "Okay. I'll schedule time with team N. Have a great day and I'll call you tomorrow at 10am".

That's the days negotiations; and yes they'd still call it negotiations because ultimately it impacts the content of the agreement.

So, daily negotiations can either be a bad thing in that they're struggling to reach an agreement or a good thing because both sides are earnest in keeping the timeline as short as practical while reaching an agreement and realize there are a huge number of tiny details to research.

 

[TOareaFan]

Sometimes daily negotiations are more about ensuring due diligence timelines don't slip than argument about the finer details.

P1: "Hi, it's X. Is your legal team still on schedule to review document X by friday?"
P2: "Yes"
P1: "Great, I'm still expecting proposal Y on Monday. The authors suggest you will need 14 days from team N to review. "
P2: "Okay. I'll schedule time with team N. Have a great day and I'll call you tomorrow at 10am".

That's the days negotiations; and yes they'd still call it negotiations because ultimately it impacts the content of the agreement.

So, daily negotiations can either be a bad thing in that they're struggling to reach an agreement or a good thing because both sides are earnest in keeping the timeline as short as practical while reaching an agreement and realize there are a huge number of tiny details to research.

yep...I only posted her tweet in a very sarcastic manner....her characterization of them "being at the table" negotiating every single day was, frankly, laughable.

 

[reaperexpress]

Okay, made another trip between Guelph and Union, so time again to gripe about the dwell time.

I took the 7:34 train from Guelph (the last one). The CSA announced times at each station, so I was able to count:

• 3 minutes at Georgetown
• 1 minute at Mt Pleasant
• 1 at Brampton
• 2 at Bramalea
• 1 at Bloor.

Slowdowns: only a TSO between Silver and Georgetown GO (more about that in the construction thread), creeping through the curve into Georgetown GO, and a red light north of King. So not as bad as last time.

Dwell time at stations is still costing about 5 minutes conservatively, and slowdowns probably another 5.

That doesn't seem too bad. 3 minutes at Georgetown is understandable given the consequence of missing a slot on the CN line. Bramalea is also a good spot for a timing point. The minute at Bloor might be questionable but overall it doesn't seem too crazy - maybe they could cut off a minute or two.

The padding is actually much more noticeable in the westbound direction because it gets concentrated at Guelph and Kitchener stations. Last time I took the 18:50 westbound GO train it arrived in Kitchener 8 minutes ahead of schedule. And when I took VIA 85 last Saturday, it arrived in Guelph 6 minutes early and had to sit around waiting for the schedule. Then it managed to arrive in Kitchener 6 minutes early as well, and had to sit around again! The Toronto-Kitchener trip actually took 1h29 (compared to 1h35 scheduled) and without that 6-minute stop in Guelph, it would have been 1h23, which is pretty respectable.

It seems like they've fixed a bunch of the slow zones between Kitchener and Guelph, such as the one over the Highway 7 bridge in east Kitchener. Hopefully the next VIA and GO schedule changes will accordingly cut at least a couple minutes off the travel times, which would make the Toronto to Kitchener train schedules less daunting to potential customers.

 

[timio]

I didn't realize that Metrolinx was still going to be held up by GEXR after purchasing the Guelph Sub from Silver > Kitchener a few years back. Looks like GEXR is still maintaining it, hence the lack of significant upgrades. Metrolinx is giving the impression that this might change in the near future (http://www.tritag.ca/blog/2017/04/08/week-in-review-april-8-2017/ >>> See Late Train to Toronto)

I believe GEXR had a lease on the line until 2018. So within 2-3 years, hopefully?

 

[TOareaFan]

I didn't realize that Metrolinx was still going to be held up by GEXR after purchasing the Guelph Sub from Silver > Kitchener a few years back. Looks like GEXR is still maintaining it, hence the lack of significant upgrades. Metrolinx is giving the impression that this might change in the near future (http://www.tritag.ca/blog/2017/04/08/week-in-review-april-8-2017/ >>> See Late Train to Toronto)

I believe GEXR had a lease on the line until 2018. So within 2-3 years, hopefully?

A travel time of 1h10m to Union was indicated as possible.

They is planning to skip a lot of stations.

 

[TOareaFan]

 

[salsa]

Well it didn't take long for the idea of random drug testing to come up.

 

[steveintoronto]

I didn't realize that Metrolinx was still going to be held up by GEXR after purchasing the Guelph Sub from Silver > Kitchener a few years back. Looks like GEXR is still maintaining it, hence the lack of significant upgrades. Metrolinx is giving the impression that this might change in the near future (http://www.tritag.ca/blog/2017/04/08/week-in-review-april-8-2017/ >>> See Late Train to Toronto)

I believe GEXR had a lease on the line until 2018. So within 2-3 years, hopefully?

Excellent link, wasn't familiar with that one, now bookmarked.

[Late train to Toronto
Kitchener-Centre MPP Daiene Vernile hosted several Metrolinx officials in Kitchener to brief local politicians, planning staff, and tech leaders, regarding progress on bringing two-way, all-day GO train service to Kitchener. As negotiations with CN are still ongoing for increased use of their corridor through Brampton and the future Missing Link line, staff were hesitant to commit to any specific timeline. An added complication, preventing the upgrading of track to speed up trains from Kitchener to Georgetown, is the lease to GEXR, who maintains the track. It sounds as though this lease may expire soon, so Metrolinx is proceeding with planning and design work in the meantime. A travel time of 1h10m to Union was indicated as possible.]

I wondered if the "lease" to GEXR wasn't the sticking point. VIA also having issues there, even after investing large sums into signalling the line. Last I heard, VIA can't increase slots until that lease is up.

This is also very interesting, a lot of us have been wondering for years on the Guelph-Hamilton issue for buses:
[TriTAG pressed staff on increasing intercity bus options to Guelph, Brantford, Hamilton, and Burlington. They avoid competing directly with private operators like Greyhound and Coach Canada, but with some routes that private operators have abandoned, like Guelph to Hamilton, GO might consider moving in. We also asked about weekend service for the express bus to Bramalea station, but it sounds like GO wants to see weekday ridership increase first.

TriTAG also encouraged Metrolinx to raise public awareness of current and planned infrastructure investments, along with existing GO bus service.]

Even if it only ran every two hours, a route from K/W across Hwy #7 to Guelph, then south along Hwy#6 to Aldershot, and perhaps to McMaster (intermeshed with the Brantford bus) would vastly increase the catchment area for overhead patrons as well as Uni students, and tie together K/W (and unis), Guelph, Lakeshore West trains and McMaster in one trip. I'd like to see hourly, but that might be not enough traffic, save at peak times.

I see their paragraph on cycle lanes and helmets, very interesting. Fodder for the cycling forum at this site.

 

[TransitBart]

Apparantly, negotiators for Metrolinx and CN meet every single day to negotiate access on the part of the KW line that GO does not currently have.....

Sounds nuts.

 

[reaperexpress]

I wondered if the "lease" to GEXR wasn't the sticking point. VIA also having issues there, even after investing large sums into signalling the line. Last I heard, VIA can't increase slots until that lease is up.

I'm confused about the nature of this lease, given that Metrolinx bought the line from CN on September 24th 2014 for $76 Million. Did it simply go from "owned by CN, leased to GEXR" to "owned by Metrolinx, leased to GEXR"? If so, I wonder what the point was of buying it prior to the end of GEXR's lease.

Issues with GEXR might also explain why VIA still hasn't re-introduced the third daily round trip they were apparently planning for Spring 2016. As it stands, there seems to be a vacant eastbound slot at the peak of rush hour, presumably reserved for that trip.

 

[rbt]

I'm confused about the nature of this lease, given that Metrolinx bought the line from CN on September 24th 2014 for $76 Million. Did it simply go from "owned by CN, leased to GEXR" to "owned by Metrolinx, leased to GEXR"?

Leases typically don't end when the landlord changes. As a tenant you'd be a fool to sign an agreement with that type of exit clause as CN would just sell it to "CN Subsidiary FU-GEXR Inc." the second something better came along.

If so, I wonder what the point was of buying it prior to the end of GEXR's lease.

To ensure CN doesn't sign an extension of that lease?

 

[crs1026]

CN's presence in the background is all about retaining its right to all the freight traffic originating and terminating on the territory. GEXR only hauls the freight for 60 miles to interchange with CN, but CN then gets the revenue for the rest of the shipment, which may be 1,000 miles or more. That's why the line was leased, and not sold outright. The lease probably doesn't give GEXR the right to route traffic as it sees fit.

With GO now in the equation with deep pockets to maintain the trackage to passenger standards, the business case for CN to lease the line to a short line operator versus operate it directly is much different. In today's world of call centers and e-commerce, CN is running the data and customer interface platforms controlling the shipment anyways.

Some of these shortline leases have interesting clauses about who owns the tracks and who gets the track materials should the lease end. I know of a case where a shortline operator (not GEXR) was responsible for all maintenance, and had to replace a worn out bridge. If that lease is cancelled, the new bridge goes away. I also know of cases where the Class I railroad is paying for maintenance against the possibility that they take the line back some day, so that the tenant isn't forced into a situation where a competitor becomes the only remaining route.

Some of the machinations that the class I railroads perform to retain traffic from lines that they claim to have lost interest in are quite entertaining.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So we need a third track in CN halwest or halton for all day service to mount pleasant and we need GEXR to go for all day service to Kitchener, correct?

 

[crs1026]

So we need a third track in CN halwest or halton for all day service to mount pleasant and we need GEXR to go for all day service to Kitchener, correct?

IF CN is relocated to the bypass, two tracks will be sufficient for 2WAD local service. The third (and fourth) tracks are needed to add express service on top of local trains ( an absolute necessitty no-brainer, IMHO ) and/or to facilitate VIA or HxR.

A second track for much or all of Georgetown - Kitchener is also required.

GEXR does not need to exit, the point about CN and/or GEXR is simply that the Kichener route has a going concern freight business that isn't going away, has its own intricacies, and (in spite of GO buying the line) probably has legal rights that must ge protected. Since GEXR has never operated double stack container trains, there is likely less standing in the way of electrifying some of this line.

- Paul