GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[ShonTron]

Nope. GO is exempt from the franchise rules and it can operate buses wherever it wants.

Yet GO has been very careful not to directly compete with Coach Canada and Greyhound. The Waterloo bus goes only as far east as Milton GO, Square One, or Cooksville GO. The Peterborough bus doesn't serve Downtown Toronto (directly), or Downtown Oshawa - Greyhound has the direct route. It has avoided the Kitchener/Guelph-Hamilton service.

 

[dunkalunk]

Yet GO has been very careful not to directly compete with Coach Canada and Greyhound. The Waterloo bus goes only as far east as Milton GO, Square One, or Cooksville GO. The Peterborough bus doesn't serve Downtown Toronto (directly), or Downtown Oshawa - Greyhound has the direct route. It has avoided the Kitchener/Guelph-Hamilton service.

GO is definitely capable of taking over Coach Canada's current passengers between K-W and Guelph given there are only 4 buses that run between them daily. Greyhound is another matter completely, because they run far more trips between Kitchener and Toronto.

 

[mpd618]

Yet GO has been very careful not to directly compete with Coach Canada and Greyhound. The Waterloo bus goes only as far east as Milton GO, Square One, or Cooksville GO. The Peterborough bus doesn't serve Downtown Toronto (directly), or Downtown Oshawa - Greyhound has the direct route. It has avoided the Kitchener/Guelph-Hamilton service.

And the reason, as best as I understand it, is that if GO's service causes Greyhound or Coach Canada to pull out of a market, they will have political pressure to take over the entire corridor's service. So they might not necessarily be willing to do that, though I hope GO Transit's new facility at Highway 6 might help with their willingness to provide service from Waterloo Region to the Lakeshore line.

 

[Komiksulo]

I did not know about the state (or lack thereof) of rail between Hamilton and K-W. I agree that getting a solid bus service in there should come first.

 

[drum118]

Kitchener GO bus fire blamed on ‘mechanical malfunction’

 

[drum118]

Yet GO has been very careful not to directly compete with Coach Canada and Greyhound. The Waterloo bus goes only as far east as Milton GO, Square One, or Cooksville GO. The Peterborough bus doesn't serve Downtown Toronto (directly), or Downtown Oshawa - Greyhound has the direct route. It has avoided the Kitchener/Guelph-Hamilton service.

Give it time, but GO will control all of Southern Ontario leaving Greyhound to Long Distance runs as well Coach Canada.

 

[reaperexpress]

I've always thought that GO is really lacking in counter-peak train service to the employment centres other than downtown Toronto. Hamilton Centre is probably the station with the next most nearby employment, and it is currently served only by bus connections from Aldershot or Union, both of which are quite time-consuming at rush hour.

Looking at the current schedules, I wonder if it's possible to run some counter-peak express service from Toronto to Hamilton by extending some early-morning runs from other lines. Those trainsets could then be productive through the peak period rather than (I'm assuming) sitting in a yard.

The last eastbound train leaves Hamilton at 7:15, so the first westbound train could arrive as early as 7:45 if the goal is to cross near Aldershot. In the afternoon, the first westbound train arrives at 17:45, so eastbound trains could leave Hamilton until about 17:15.

Assumptions:
- These trips would otherwise just be sitting in a yard all day
- 2 tracks are occupied by peak-direction service. Counter peak service therefore has access to 1 track west of Mimico and 2 tracks east of Mimico. The line west of Aldershot is assumed to be double-track, except for the single-track tunnel into Hamilton Centre.
- CP is able to accommodate this extra service into Hamilton Centre. There is generally 30 minutes between GO trains, which leaves plenty of time for CP to pass through the short single-track tunnel in the opposite direction.

 

[mdrejhon]

Assumptions:
- These trips would otherwise just be sitting in a yard all day
- 2 tracks are occupied by peak-direction service. Counter peak service therefore has access to 1 track west of Mimico and 2 tracks east of Mimico. The line west of Aldershot is assumed to be double-track, except for the single-track tunnel into Hamilton Centre.
- CP is able to accommodate this extra service into Hamilton Centre. There is generally 30 minutes between GO trains, which leaves plenty of time for CP to pass through the short single-track tunnel in the opposite direction.

As much as I like this...

I'd love to see more direct-to-downtown service -- but both CN and CP put a price on letting Metrolinx use their rail for passenger service, and may be reluctant to give guarantees.

From what I'm witnessing, and construction site photographing, I see far more infrastructure happening on the CN side of things -- my earlier 2015 pictures and especially the Metrolinx-funded Hamilton Junction expansion where I witnessed pile-driving on February 19th, 2016 for upcoming rail bridge footings there. That could tip the scales, if CN was willing to provide a schedule guarantee that CP was unable to accomodate. Freight companies are notoriously finicky about sharing with passengers but the negotiations with CN may possibly be going better.

Also observe that the Niagara area mayors are wanting to also PULL people into their area by GO trains for work, with their massive pre-emptive Niagara GO train investments and their recent success in getting a Welland Canal GO train priority-over-boats guarantee! These Nigara mayors are preemptively paying 1/3rd of the cost of the upcoming Niagara commuter GO train service -- that potentially means counter-peak trains that makes a Hamilton stop. Toronto->Hamilton->Niagara in the morning, and Niagara->Hamilton->Toronto in the evening. 14 trains a day, 7 each way, and it's probably going to end up being service in both directions because of the Niagara-area municipal pay-ins.

My betting man bet if there was one: It's West Harbour GO for counterpeak service. Trace the money and construction site activity, and it looks almost virtually certain West Harbour GO is going to be the first one to get counterpeak service. It's likely Hamilton Downtown will probably only get peak-direction service for now.

Bet your mortgage on it. Even if it's not the most appealing option for all Hamiltonians.

(At least West Harbour GO is only a 15 minute walk from Hamiltion downtown, and will eventually be connected by LRT!)

 

[reaperexpress]

As much as I like this...

I'd love to see more direct-to-downtown service -- but both CN and CP put a price on letting Metrolinx use their rail for passenger service, and may be reluctant to give guarantees.

From what I'm witnessing, and construction site photographing, I see far more infrastructure happening on the CN side of things -- my earlier 2015 pictures and especially the Metrolinx-funded Hamilton Junction expansion where I witnessed pile-driving on February 19th, 2016 for upcoming rail bridge footings there. That could tip the scales, if CN was willing to provide a schedule guarantee that CP was unable to accomodate. Freight companies are notoriously finicky about sharing with passengers but the negotiations with CN may possibly be going better.

Also observe that the Niagara area mayors are wanting to also PULL people into their area by GO trains for work, with their massive pre-emptive Niagara GO train investments and their recent success in getting a Welland Canal GO train priority-over-boats guarantee! These Nigara mayors are preemptively paying 1/3rd of the cost of the upcoming Niagara commuter GO train service -- that potentially means counter-peak trains that makes a Hamilton stop. Toronto->Hamilton->Niagara in the morning, and Niagara->Hamilton->Toronto in the evening. 14 trains a day, 7 each way, and it's probably going to end up being service in both directions because of the Niagara-area municipal pay-ins.

My betting man bet if there was one: It's West Harbour GO for counterpeak service. Trace the money and construction site activity, and it looks almost virtually certain West Harbour GO is going to be the first one to get counterpeak service. It's likely Hamilton Downtown will probably only get peak-direction service for now.

Bet your mortgage on it. Even if it's not the most appealing option for all Hamiltonians.

I totally see the infrastructure advantage of the CN line, especially as it gets upgraded.

But on the other hand, the RER plan said hourly all-day service to Hamilton Centre, not West Harbour. I was as surprised as I'm sure you were by this, given the aforementioned advantages of West Harbour, but it means I wouldn't necessarily bet a house on West Harbour becoming the definitive Hamilton station moving forward.

While West Harbour is more prepared to all-day service, the fact remains that we do run trains to Hamilton Centre. I've always thought that Hamilton Centre is best suited for commutes to Hamilton, while West Harbour's residential location, superior infrastructure and parking availability makes it better positioned for peak service to Toronto, as well as all-day service.

The whole reason this fantasy schedule came about was that I was looking into simply reversing the direction of the existing trips: there would be 4 trains per day for commuters to Hamilton, and all other service would go out of West Harbour. It was only after I realized that Hamilton-centric service could be accommodated without eliminating the existing service that I ended up with this proposal to actually increase service to Hamilton Centre.

The 7 daily trains per direction for Niagara, some of which could "potentially" be counter-peak, are fairly inconsequential in terms of commuter movement to Hamilton. I don't think those 7 trains to Niagara will adequately cover Hamilton commuter demand on their own, there's plenty of room for two or three additional trains targeted specifically to downtown Hamilton.

(At least West Harbour GO is only a 15 minute walk from Hamiltion downtown, and will eventually be connected by LRT!)

Don't forget Hamilton Bike Share! The slightly awkward location of West Harbour was an anticipated catalyst for ridership. (I haven't been involved with Hamilton Bike Share since it opened though, so I'm not sure if that's actually panned out.)

 

[mdrejhon]

Don't forget Hamilton Bike Share! The slightly awkward location of West Harbour was an anticipated catalyst for ridership. (I haven't been involved with Hamilton Bike Share since it opened though, so I'm not sure if that's actually panned out.)

It most certainly did.

I use Hamilton Bike Share (SoBi) to reach West Harbour GO. The SoBi stations at both GO stations, are among the most most popular SoBi stations in the morning (after McMaster University). The station at Hamilton Downtown GO often overflows, so people use the electronic U-bar to dock on nearby trees/poles as it's not a requirement to dock directly on the stations themselves. My SoBi+GO commute actually takes less total time than my park-n-ride commute, and it does get me to work a bit faster, but the problem is there's not enough late-running trains as I would rather board a 7:45am or 8:00am GO Train from either Hamilton station. So I still do a lot of driving to Aldershot GO instead, since the last departing GO train from Hamilton is 7:15am...

FYI, if you were unaware, Hamilton Bike Share has more active members than Toronto Bike Share -- with some envy in a Toronto newspaper article. There's now over 7,300 active members and I just rode SoBi yesterday with my spouse with the "bring a guest option" (my membership code unlocks up to 3 bikes simultaneously) since it was so balmy at >10C.

I think bike share stations should be introduced to more GO stations, GO-wide. IMHO, the Metrolinx $4.9M offer (plus proceeds from selling off old BIXI infrastructure to Citibike) for Toronto Bike Share expansion, could potentially cover a smartbike fleet overlapping Exhbition GO, Bloor GO, and Danforth GO. The coverage efficiency of 4th-generation smartbikes is much more than older 3rd generation BIXI-style systems (instead of a few expensive docks, you have large number of cheap docks + ability to dock away from official stations + mostly crowdsourced bike rebalancing rewarding you with bike credit). The newer smartbike systems are able to break even at only 1-2 rides per bike per day, so a better use of taxpayer money and making it possible to cheaply install bikeshare at several Toronto GO stations.

But on the other hand, the RER plan said hourly all-day service to Hamilton Centre, not West Harbour. I was as surprised as I'm sure you were by this, given the aforementioned advantages of West Harbour, but it means I wouldn't necessarily bet a house on West Harbour becoming the definitive Hamilton station moving forward.

While West Harbour is more prepared to all-day service, the fact remains that we do run trains to Hamilton Centre. I've always thought that Hamilton Centre is best suited for commutes to Hamilton, while West Harbour's residential location, superior infrastructure and parking availability makes it better positioned for peak service to Toronto, as well as all-day service.

From my continuing observations, I'm getting less convinced that hourly will go to downtown by 2025 instead of West Harbour, given the desire for schedule reliability.

Perhaps they will do some infrastructure on the CP side and pull it off by 2025 (counterpeak included) but if we're talking about which station will occur first -- I'd now anticipate counterpeak Hamilton service to occur before 2020 at West Harbour GO given the Niagara positivity occuring.

In the old GO 2020 documents, Kitchener wasn't even mentioned as a possible GO Train destination, while Peterborough was, so things do change over time depending on financial priorities. And as recently as 2008, promises of all-day 2-way 30 minute service all the way to Hamilton Downtown. Given the repeatedly broken promises, my perception of the Hamilton downtown is that it was a political move to buy time for more definitive progress that is now arleady becoming visible on the CN side lately...

I'd hope for both stations to get both peak+counterpeak service, with one station getting all-day 2-way. West Harbour GO being first from the infrastructure readiness POV, though.

 

[dowlingm]

Isn't the question that with the LRT, particularly the N-S one, whether new development in Hamilton will migrate somewhat toward the lake, making Hamilton Centre less central in terms of commutes? Also, with West Harbour fully operational then should Hamilton Centre have to be taken offline for a bit should the money ever be found to widen the tunnel, this wouldn't have as severe an impact as it would otherwise.

 

[gweed123]

Isn't the question that with the LRT, particularly the N-S one, whether new development in Hamilton will migrate somewhat toward the lake, making Hamilton Centre less central in terms of commutes? Also, with West Harbour fully operational then should Hamilton Centre have to be taken offline for a bit should the money ever be found to widen the tunnel, this wouldn't have as severe an impact as it would otherwise.

West Harbour is in the middle of a largely low-rise residential neighbourhood. Most of the waterfront development will be taking place on former industrial lands. So while the areas around West Harbour will change dramatically, I don't think the immediate neighbourhood (<3-4 blocks away) will change that much. If anything, Hamilton's core will extend E-W along King St, not really N-S along James.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

West Harbour is in the middle of a largely low-rise residential neighbourhood. Most of the waterfront development will be taking place on former industrial lands. So while the areas around West Harbour will change dramatically, I don't think the immediate neighbourhood (<3-4 blocks away) will change that much. If anything, Hamilton's core will extend E-W along King St, not really N-S along James.

Here is a larger project going in near West Harbour. Good do see some density starting to develop there.
http://skyrisecities.com/database/projects/tiffany-square-condominiums-west-harbour

 

[mdrejhon]

Also, it is my understanding there is subsidized housing adjacent to West Harbour. This may mean a Regent Park style demolish-and-densify within a couple of decades, to create additional affordable units (while being subsidized by market units).

(That said, I also have concerns about the lack of affordable housing and the growing waiting list of recipients. Considering existing housing has not currently been well maintained. This needs to be addressed more fully, and I hope attention is focused on this well before we come to this point of needing to do a demolish-densify cycle)

 

[nfitz]

In the Ontario 2016 budget, there's some information about service increases in the next fiscal year (April 2016 to March 2017). Nothing we haven't already heard, but essentially evening and weekend rail service to Brampton, weekend service to Brampton, and a handful more peak trains on some of the other lines:

Oh, and I missed this - extension of GO rail service to Niagara and Bowmanville (though no timeframe). And also new and improved GO bus connections to the GO rail network for communities such as Brantford and Cambridge.