GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[TOareaFan]

well it did get full during the start of the school year, however York went on Strike and the Bramalea station lot has not gone over capacity since the strike started.

http://maps.live.com/#JnNzPXlwLkJyY...xOS4xNDUxNjgxOTYyMDUzJTdlLTExOS4yNjc1NzgxMjU=

I take that back....I just looked at a maps.live.com view of the station and the south lot appears full that day!!!!

Makes you wonder, though, why they added a second kiss and ride when they added the south lot? Surely there is no need for two kiss and rides....eliminate the south one and you probably get 50 - 100 new parking spaces? You can also see what I mean about the bus storage....that is a lot of potential parking that can be created (it used to be parking) if they could find somewhere else to park the buses.

 

[realtycoon]

but the larger issue will be to start charging for parking. GO is intending to start doing this over the next few years, with higher costs at stations where there are local alternatives to driving.

The problem with Go charging for parking is that it will force people to drive to the city instead of taking the train. Many people spend anywhere from $150 - $250/month for a Go Train pass. If you then have to add $50/mo for parking on top of that, then add the reliability issues of Go Transit etc, many people will then decide to just drive and park downtown! For myself, I can park downtown for $150/month, should my Go Train monthly including parking jump to well over $200/month, I would seriously consider driving into the city.

 

[TOareaFan]

The problem with Go charging for parking is that it will force people to drive to the city instead of taking the train. Many people spend anywhere from $150 - $250/month for a Go Train pass. If you then have to add $50/mo for parking on top of that, then add the reliability issues of Go Transit etc, many people will then decide to just drive and park downtown! For myself, I can park downtown for $150/month, should my Go Train monthly including parking jump to well over $200/month, I would seriously consider driving into the city.

Presuming, though, that part of the expansion/investment will improve the reliability issues, you leave a lot out of your equation if you just compare the $200/month GO/parking with the $150 per month parking.

I know that all factors considered, regular/reliable GO could be a lot more expensive than it is today and still beat driving for me. Gas/insurance/depreciation/maintenance are all things that decline if I don't drive from the burbs to the core every day.

Now, each person has to make their own determination (ie. I have to assume that your "downtown parking" is not at King and Bay....not a lot of lots around here charging $150/month ) to reach each person break-even point but $200/month all-in from any of the outer burbs, I would imagine, would beat the cost of driving and parking daily.

 

[DavidH]

Now, each person has to make their own determination (ie. I have to assume that your "downtown parking" is not at King and Bay....not a
lot of lots around here charging $150/month )

Exactly. The assumption that the cost of driving to downtown is merely $150/month is wrong. Total cost would probably be in the neighbourhood of $300-$400 for those with small cars, and more for those with less efficient cars or longer trips.

And there the speed and stress factors. You are not going to get from Ajax to downtown in 30 minutes driving during rush hour. Despite grumblings about GO train delays, it's generally faster and more reliable (in terms of variability of travel time) than driving downtown, and for many, a good deal less stressful than fighting traffic all the way downtown.

I think GO is aware that there is a point at which they will drive people away from the train, and they will try to find the point at which they keep people as riders but convince many of them not to drive to the station and convince them to switch to local transit.

 

[TOareaFan]

Exactly. The assumption that the cost of driving to downtown is merely $150/month is wrong. Total cost would probably be in the neighbourhood of $300-$400 for those with small cars, and more for those with less efficient cars or longer trips.

You really can't guess what each person's cost is. It is totally dependant on too many variables.

 

[DavidH]

You really can't guess what each person's cost is. It is totally dependant on too many variables.

I can't guess an exact amount, agreed, but we can do reasonable ballpark minimum costs. Let's use my location of Ajax as an example - but keep in mind that many of the GO riders we are talking about would come from even further out.

Parking alone will cost that much or more, I suspect. I'm not up on current parking prices downtown but even where I work at North York Centre it goes for $130-$140 a month, and there is no reason why it would be substantially less downtown.

Then, assuming you are driving a car that gets 10 L/100 km (to assume a fairly ballpark figure - many will NOT do anywhere near this well) and driving 50 km each way (basically, Ajax to the foot of Yonge), you will be paying around $40 a week in gas at current "low" prices. That's another $160 a month, totalling over $300 a month so far.

We haven't even talked about insurance (being able to tell your agent you are NOT driving to work will result in a significant discount, which should give you a few hundred a year in savings if nothing else) and depreciation and maintenance costs (50 km each way is likely something like 25000 km saved each year, which will have a very real impact). This is harder to quantify because a lot will depend on how long you intend to keep the car, but it's probably reasonable to assume that at the minimum it's a few hundred a month - possibly a good deal more. Of course, some will be intending to keep the car until it's near dead, but that just means you aren't taking direct a loss on depreciation so much as needing to replace your car a hell of a lot sooner, and that's a different cost.

And then - there is the cost of the person's time and stress levels. You're not going to get from Ajax to downtown during rush hour in 30 minutes. Even allowing time to park at the GO station and wait for a train, it's faster and less stressful. That's why people use it. This means that even if the costs were comparable (and they are not), a great many people will take the train anyway.

And finally - any significant divergence of people off of GO would increase travel times to downtown and increase downtown parking costs. There is a feedback loop here - as some people try to drive downtown, other people are automatically discouraged from driving downtown.

Obviously, everyone's math will be different - but it's clear that driving a significant distance to downtown is probably running you $500 a month or more. Yes, GO needs to be reasonable - but a $50 monthly parking charge as postulated above is not going to convince people to drive downtown - but because it's *more* than GO cofare rides to the station for a month ($25 in Durham), it *will* encourage some to take transit instead of driving. Not everyone, true - but enough to help.

 

[TOareaFan]

I can't guess an exact amount, agreed, but we can do reasonable ballpark minimum costs. Let's use my location of Ajax as an example - but keep in mind that of the GO riders we are talking about would come from even further out.

Parking alone will cost that much or more, I suspect. I'm not up on current parking prices downtown but even here at North York Centre it goes for $130-$140 a month, and there is no reason why it would be substantially less downtown.

King and University....underground, unreserved spot....$350/mth.

Then, assuming you are driving a car that gets 10 L/100 km (to assume a fairly ballpark figure - many will NOT do anywhere near this well) and driving 50 km each way (basically, Ajax to the foot of Yonge), you will be paying around $40 a week in gas at current "low" prices. That's another $160 a month, totalling over $300 a month so far.

We haven't even talked about insurance (being able to tell your agent you are NOT driving to work will result in a significant discount, which should give you a few hundred a year in savings if nothing else) and depreciation and maintenance costs (50 km each way is likely something like 25000 km saved each year, which will have a very real impact). This is harder to quantify because a lot will depend on how long you intend to keep the car, but it's probably reasonable to assume that at the minimum it's a few hundred a month - possibly a good deal more. Of course, some will be intending to keep the car until it's near dead, but that just means you aren't taking direct a loss on depreciation so much as needing to replace your car a hell of a lot sooner, and that's a different cost.

Obviously, everyone's math will be different - but it's clear that driving a significant distance to downtown is probably running you $500 a month or more. There is no way that a GO parking charge is suddenly going to make leaving the car at the GO station economically worse than driving.

I think your estimates are reasonable (if light) and certainly support the economic advantage of transit over driving......what cannot be factored in (and becomes a "personal call") is the convenience factor.

I view transit (assuming full service both directions and regular frequencies) as the more convenient option as it allows me to relax and have a consistant/predictable travel time. Others view transit as the least convenient option as it ties you to a schedule (no matter how frequent) as opposed to being free to come and go as you please. So the "economic comparison model" needs, either, a convenience premium or discount depending on the individual.

 

[DavidH]

I think your estimates are reasonable (if light) and certainly support the economic advantage of transit over driving......what cannot be factored in (and becomes a "personal call") is the convenience factor.

I was being very deliberately light so as to remove any possibility of arguing that the margin of error swings in favour of driving.

You're absolutely right about convenience. Even if I *could* drive to work for less than transit costs, I wouldn't. Between work and twin toddlers at home, that time on the bus is the most relaxing time of my day, and if I were driving, I would lose a major source of stress relief.

But in terms of managing GO parking lot usage (which is where this started), these people are already choosing transit. The question then is: is $50 a month enough to drive them away, given that GO would likely use some of the money in areas where it would be visible (e.g. increased security). Based on the math, I really can't see how it could except for some that are already on the verge - and demand for GO parking would be such that they would be replaced by someone else later in the morning. If anything, the charge would ensure that there are some spots available to people who are looking for them past 8:00am.

 

[TOareaFan]

I was being very deliberately light so as to remove any possibility of arguing that the margin of error swings in favour of driving.

You're absolutely right about convenience. Even if I *could* drive to work for less than transit costs, I wouldn't. Between work and twin toddlers at home, that time on the bus is the most relaxing time of my day, and if I were driving, I would lose a major source of stress relief.

Just to point out the individual differences....I love transit but only use it 10% of the time (estimate there) because the lack of train service would push me on to buses.....and I hate buses!! So my own personal evaluation/calculation would not even start until such time as I have reasonably regular and frequent train service.

But in terms of managing GO parking lot usage (which is where this started), these people are already choosing transit. The question then is: is $50 a month enough to drive them away, given that GO would likely use some of the money in areas where it would be visible (e.g. increased security). Based on the math, I really can't see how it could except for some that are already on the verge - and demand for GO parking would be such that they would be replaced by someone else later in the morning. If anything, the charge would ensure that there are some spots available to people who are looking for them past 8:00am.

If I were GO, I would put a limit of, say, 25% of the spots in any given lot being reserved. Using, say, the Bramalea lot....that would give them the potential to earn $50/month on the 538 most desirable spots.....that works out to an additional $323k of annual income from that station......that might just pay a decent chunk of the station operations (or, at least, offset the cost of extending those operations due to increased service).

Leaving 75% of the spots free, allows the commuter to make a choice:

1. drive to GO early enough for a free spot
2. reserve a spot and arrive whenever you like for whatever train you like
3. use public transit to GO to avoid the parking hassle
4. bypass GO altogether and drive to work.

 

[kEiThZ]

What GO needs are multi-storey parking structures with access control. They could charge a minimal fee to recoup the cost of the structure. This would accomplish a number of objectives. Depending on how it's implemented it could drastically improve security (a real issue for GO lots today) and it would free up some valuable land for development or green space at most GO locations (Guildwood, Agincourt for 2 examples). Perhaps the parking structure could also be co-ordinated with other transit services, for example access for TTC metropass or VIVA monthly pass holders.

And this could even be combined with TOAreafan's idea about offering reserved spots to raise money. (ie 2 dollar charge per day for daily rider or 100 dollar monthly charge for a reserved spot).

Just a suggestion....

 

[catcher_of_cats]

What GO needs are multi-storey parking structures with access control.

There is already a fully operational parking structure at Burlington GO, but I am uncertain as to whether it is paid or reserved parking which would be easy to implement.

 

[lordmandeep]

I take that back....I just looked at a maps.live.com view of the station and the south lot appears full that day!!!

Yes, It even appears there over a dozen illegal parked cars in the North lot as well.


Anyways, I go to Malton station more and its maybe 85-90% full at most.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is already a fully operational parking structure at Burlington GO, but I am uncertain as to whether it is paid or reserved parking which would be easy to implement.

That's a start. What's bewildering is why they don't do it inside the 416. They could sell some valuable land to help defray the cost. And they could coordinate with the TTC to create more commuter lots outside downtown.

 

[TOareaFan]

Just a clarification.

From some of the responses/comments about "my" reserved parking idea it indicates to me that some of you might not be aware that GO already has reserved parking for a fee.

At most GO stations, you can reserve a spot at the cost of $50 per month. I do it, and it seems that the number of people doing it is growing. You get a spot (by luck mine is the best spot in the lot....must've applied right when someone cancelled cause I was not "first"), a sign goes on the spot indicating it is reserved. If someone breaks the rules and parks in your spot, then you simply report it to the station attendant, they note your license plate and allow you to park in the kiss-n-ride for the day while they get parking inforcement out to ticket the person in your spot.

Pretty simple system, does not add a lot of cost and, as parking becomes tighter, one that I think GO will push as a potential solution for people and will increase their revenues.

Anyway, just thought I would clarify that....reserved parking is not my idea....just a good idea of someone else that I take advantage off.

 

[ShonTron]

I think they should charge everyone for parking (not a lot, even $2-3 a day or $25-30 a month) and de-couple the cost of building and maintaining and enforcing parking lots from the GO fare so that carpoolers, pedestrians, transit users, are rewarded and don't have the cost of parking integrated into their fare. The TTC doesn't have all passengers subsidize the parking spaces.

In addition, there could be continued reserved spaces.