GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[TOareaFan]

This discussion is occurring in 2 threads simultaneously...

Currently the Georgetown to Kitchener segment is the capacity constraint on the line, even if you consider that most trains will turn back before Georgetown. The capacity is pretty much zero as far as all-day service is concerned because it currently takes an hour in each direction from Georgetown to Kitchener. Given that it's a single track, the best possible frequency with the current configuration would be every 2 hours, though that's unrealistically low because it does not include any layover or padding time.

Building a second platform at Guelph Central station to allow trains to cross there would cut that roughly in half, to a roughly 1h15 minimum headway. But the elephant in the room is peak-hour service. We currently have 1h headways in the peak direction, likely to drop as low as 30 min in 2016. With only a single track, counter-peak service is simply impossible, which is not acceptable given the importance of Kitchener-Waterloo as an employment hub. Furthermore the upgrade is not only in capacity, but also in speed (read: reduced operating costs and increased revenue).

Yes, in order to get "proper" regional rail (i.e. 4+ suburban trains per hour from Union to Mount Pleasant, and an additional 1+ regional trains per hour to Kitchener) very significant investment is needed in Brampton, in the form of either a new freight bypass line or a GTS-level upgrade of the existing railway. But in the meantime, double tracking the line west of Georgetown means that we can enjoy 1 train per hour from Toronto to Kitchener along with as many trains as we like from Union to Bramalea.

That is the point....GO/Metrolinx have advised me that service is not possible without a third track

 

[nfitz]

That is the point....GO/Metrolinx have advised me that service is not possible without a third track

There's already more than one train an hour during rushhour on that track!

Personally, I'd be happy with one westbound in the AM, and one eastbound in the PM.

 

[TOareaFan]

There's already more than one train an hour during rushhour on that track!

in one direction...meaning that there is always a track open for freight......I don't agree with ML/GO that they need 3 tracks to run hourly ("old lakeshore" style service) but that does not matter....if they think they do they control the implementation and it takes me back to what brought this up (this time) what value is there is fast tracking the work between GTown and Kitchener to make that AD2W capable if the bit in the middle (in the opinion of the service provider) is not ready and there is no firm plan on how to make it ready.

 

[reaperexpress]

in one direction...meaning that there is always a track open for freight. I don't agree with ML/GO that they need 3 tracks to run hourly ("old lakeshore" style service) but that does not matter. If they think they do they control the implementation and it takes me back to what brought this up (this time) what value is there is fast tracking the work between GTown and Kitchener to make that AD2W capable if the bit in the middle (in the opinion of the service provider) is not ready and there is no firm plan on how to make it ready.

I think what matters here is CN, not Metrolinx. Metrolinx is like us, they want AD2W service, it could be simply that they are receiving some negative vibes from CN about it. What exists here isn't a capacity problem, it's a negotiation and possibly service flexibility problem. One train per hour per direction is really not very much, and it leaves far more capacity available than CN uses, especially considering the line is triple-tracked as far as Mount Pleasant except through Brampton station. Meanwhile CN's own line further east is only double track with several single-track sections. So a single GO train per hour joining in to CN traffic at Bramalea increases the capacity requirement by more than a whole extra track?

We (both UT and Metrolinx) have always known that Brampton Station would be a capacity constraint in the future, maybe we just underestimated by how much. In which case we need to get the political ball rolling on the 407 freight bypass line as soon as possible.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think what matters here is CN, not Metrolinx. Metrolinx is like us, they want AD2W service, it could be simply that they are receiving some negative vibes from CN about it. What exists here isn't a capacity problem, it's a negotiation and possibly service flexibility problem. One train per hour per direction is really not very much, and it leaves far more capacity available than CN uses, especially considering the line is triple-tracked as far as Mount Pleasant except through Brampton station. Meanwhile CN's own line further east is only double track with several single-track sections. So a single GO train per hour joining in to CN traffic at Bramalea increases the capacity requirement by more than a whole extra track?

You are absolutely right (IMO) but ML is the conduit for the information to us the public. So when I say ML has advised me (repeatedly) that there is not enough track space to Mt. Pleasant to offer the sort of hourly off peak service that used to exist on Lakeshore I am sure they are just saying there is not enough to do that within the context of their negotiations and discussions with CN on what is allowed through the Bramalea to Mt. Pleasant section.

That said, this (particularly the bolded part) does take me back to my original comment about this track purchase. It hardly seems a good negotiation strategy with CN to pay them money for all the parts they don't really need, pay them money for the stations without getting some agreement to either buy and control that key piece in the middle or, at least, include in the purchase of the other parts the right to run much more passenger service through that key middle part that CN is not selling.

So, we may not be saying it the same way but I think we are saying the same thing.....buying the entire corridor with the exception of the Bramalea to GTown section does very little (perhaps nothing) towards getting AD2W service in this corridor.

We (both UT and Metrolinx) have always known that Brampton Station would be a capacity constraint in the future, maybe we just underestimated by how much. In which case we need to get the political ball rolling on the 407 freight bypass line as soon as possible.

So, having paid for all the bits CN doesn't need.....the only solution is to invest very large amounts of money building them a brand new freight bypass? Methinks ML has been out negotiated in this corridor.

 

[ShonTron]

This discussion is occurring in 2 threads simultaneously...

Currently the Georgetown to Kitchener segment is the capacity constraint on the line, even if you consider that most trains will turn back before Georgetown. The capacity is pretty much zero as far as all-day service is concerned because it currently takes an hour in each direction from Georgetown to Kitchener. Given that it's a single track, the best possible frequency with the current configuration would be every 2 hours, though that's unrealistically low because it does not include any layover or padding time.

Building a second platform at Guelph Central station to allow trains to cross there would cut that roughly in half, to a roughly 1h15 minimum headway. But the elephant in the room is peak-hour service. We currently have up to 2 trains per hour in the peak direction (including VIA), and this is set to increase even further in 2016. With only a single track, counter-peak service is simply impossible, which is not acceptable given the importance of Kitchener-Waterloo as an employment hub. Furthermore the upgrade is not only in capacity, but also in speed (read: reduced operating costs and increased revenue).

Yes, in order to get "proper" regional rail (i.e. 4+ suburban trains per hour from Union to Mount Pleasant, and an additional 1+ regional trains per hour to Kitchener) very significant investment is needed in Brampton, in the form of either a new freight bypass line or a GTS-level upgrade of the existing railway. But in the meantime, double tracking the line west of Georgetown means that we can enjoy 1 train per hour from Toronto to Kitchener along with as many trains as we like from Union to Bramalea.

I can't find my post (lousy search function) where I calculated with the current track configuration between Halwest (Bramalea) and Mount Pleasant, GO could run hourly all-day, two-way trains to Mount Pleasant while CN enjoys the same (if not more) capacity they had prior to the additional tracks laid and the new platform built at Brampton Station. Upon entering
the Halton Sub at Bramalea, a GO train can get to Mount Pleasant, reverse, brake check and return to the Weston sub within an hour and lots of time to spare in case of a delay along the route. It would use the south track all the way through Brampton to the pocket track at Mount Pleasant, leaving 1-2 tracks entirely to CN/VIA.

So the forced transfer at Bramalea to buses for points west should never happen if GO is only interested in running hourly service in the short term. Mount Pleasant makes more sense.

Much of the Halton Sub between Georgetown and Burlington is single tracked, so it's not as CN needs two continous tracks through Brampton. Anything beyond hourly service though would need third track through Downtown Brampton. At least the new platform allows for major work to move the heritage station back without interfering with GO's operations.

In addition, widening the Credit River bridge gives CN more capacity west of Mount Pleasant, making it easier to schedule its own freights.

 

[drum118]

GO has put a new batch of New buses on the road and they have a new rear Route Sign.

We also have the 3000 series for the buses now.

Caught new 2556 on Yonge today as well 2560. While waiting for a 97N, a GO bus pulls up in front of me in the new colours and didn't think anything about it until I looked at the number. It was 3000 and took me by surprise that I was only got the front door and rear shot of it. It must been out for testing as it came south from Finch a short time and too much traffic to get a shot of it.

Miss a few of these new buses when I got to Finch after doing some things first. Got a shot of 2596, but the sun was against me.

I can't speak for the Halton Sub 100%, but it double track for most of the section between Burlington Junction and Georgetown from what I gave seen of it. It double track from Georgetown to south side of Milton and all of Burlington. It my understanding that whole section is double track.

It is my understanding that when they added the 2nd track over Port Credit River, provision was made to build wider pier support on the south side of the existing bridge for future expansion with the new track going in on the north side.

I will have more confirm info on the bridge on Sat when I am talking to someone who has first hand knowledge.

The idea of using the 407 for RR is only a dream as the risk factor is too great than the current moment of dangerous goods. There is a risk factor that needs to be looked at when reviewing the current line vs the 407 and it will fail the test. Having done some risk factoring on Various projects over the years, it not cut and dry as people think. Cities have a risk team when looking at various things to the point they think not having insurance on various things out weight the cost of having it.

The only pinch point I know of not having 4 tracks on the Georgetown-Bramalea section is .5-1 mile in downtown Brampton where you can only get 3 tracks in compare to the current 2. Mount Pleasant could be another since I have only been there twice and people who know the area will know better than me, but 3 tracks are there.

As noted, not that hard to move the current VIA station north and still maintain rail service for GO and VIA. The 2 lines stay where they are and a new Centre platform is built beside the current track 1 with a new track 1 going in north of it. Because of lack of space, it possible the centre platform will not be built and going with a north platform only. Having looked at this station over the years as well during the construction of the south platform, it will be a tight to get the centre platform in to the point is will be narrower than the current ones. Have to wait until surveying is done as well having a draft plan surface to see what can happen there since it a guessing game now.

 

[EnviroTO]

Discussion about CN out negotiating Metrolinx is a bit crazy. The reality is that the CN mainline isn't for sale. CN needs to ensure trains don't get caught behind GO trains. It wouldn't be practical to stop and start freight trains to fit in GO trains and with only two tracks it is hard to handle two directions at different speeds plus cross traffic (Guelph on the north side of the mainline and Malton on the south).

The tracks between Silver and Kitchener need significant work with trains crawling on that stretch. Metrolinx would be crazy to spend money adding tracks, improving tracks, creating grade separations, etc without ownership.

 

[TOareaFan]

Discussion about CN out negotiating Metrolinx is a bit crazy. The reality is that the CN mainline isn't for sale. CN needs to ensure trains don't get caught behind GO trains. It wouldn't be practical to stop and start freight trains to fit in GO trains and with only two tracks it is hard to handle two directions at different speeds plus cross traffic (Guelph on the north side of the mainline and Malton on the south).

The tracks between Silver and Kitchener need significant work with trains crawling on that stretch. Metrolinx would be crazy to spend money adding tracks, improving tracks, creating grade separations, etc without ownership.

Isn't that exactly what they will have to do, then, on the part CN won't sell? Or give up on the idea of RER?

 

[nfitz]

The tracks between Silver and Kitchener need significant work with trains crawling on that stretch. Metrolinx would be crazy to spend money adding tracks, improving tracks, creating grade separations, etc without ownership.

Isn't that exactly what they will have to do, then, on the part CN won't sell?

Read up the thread. CN has sold the tracks between Silver and Kitchener to Metrolinx.

 

[smallspy]

We also have the 3000 series for the buses now.

3000 (and 3001) were delivered in late 2008 and have been in service since early 2009.

I can't speak for the Halton Sub 100%, but it double track for most of the section between Burlington Junction and Georgetown from what I gave seen of it. It double track from Georgetown to south side of Milton and all of Burlington. It my understanding that whole section is double track.

The Halton Sub is single-track from Ash (mile 39.5, south of Milton) to Milbase (34.3, middle of Milton), and from Mansewood (32.3, north of Milton) to Speyside (28.0, south of Georgetown). There are however also 3 single-tracked bridges within the double-track sections, at Tansley (43.1), Stewarttown (26.4) and Humber (4.3).

It is my understanding that when they added the 2nd track over Port Credit River, provision was made to build wider pier support on the south side of the existing bridge for future expansion with the new track going in on the north side.

Yes, they did. Phase 2 of the GO improvements to the line calls for the extension of the third track from Mt. Pleasant over the bridge to the junction at Silver. Because the bridge piers have been widened, this is now a much easier, quicker, and cheaper job.

I will have more confirm info on the bridge on Sat when I am talking to someone who has first hand knowledge.

The idea of using the 407 for RR is only a dream as the risk factor is too great than the current moment of dangerous goods. There is a risk factor that needs to be looked at when reviewing the current line vs the 407 and it will fail the test. Having done some risk factoring on Various projects over the years, it not cut and dry as people think. Cities have a risk team when looking at various things to the point they think not having insurance on various things out weight the cost of having it.

How do you figure? What about the thousands of tons of hazardous goods that already travel along the 407 every day?

The only pinch point I know of not having 4 tracks on the Georgetown-Bramalea section is .5-1 mile in downtown Brampton where you can only get 3 tracks in compare to the current 2. Mount Pleasant could be another since I have only been there twice and people who know the area will know better than me, but 3 tracks are there.

The corridor is wide enough for at least 4 tracks along its length. The pinch point however will be the station, as there is not enough land within the corridor for 4 tracks and any platforms.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[innsertnamehere]

could the corridor not just be artificially widened at Downtown Brampton to fit the platforms? Just make the parking lot smaller.

 

[reaperexpress]

The idea of using the 407 for RR is only a dream as the risk factor is too great than the current moment of dangerous goods. There is a risk factor that needs to be looked at when reviewing the current line vs the 407 and it will fail the test. Having done some risk factoring on Various projects over the years, it not cut and dry as people think. Cities have a risk team when looking at various things to the point they think not having insurance on various things out weight the cost of having it.

I'm curious as to how they make an assessment of risk for this sort of incident. I would have thought that transporting dangerous goods along a highway/industrial area would result in lower risk than transporting it through the centre of downtown Brampton.

Read up the thread. CN has sold the tracks between Silver and Kitchener to Metrolinx.

They are clearly talking about the segment from Silver to Halwest.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

could the corridor not just be artificially widened at Downtown Brampton to fit the platforms? Just make the parking lot smaller.

How are you going to do that without pissing everyone off.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

could the corridor not just be artificially widened at Downtown Brampton to fit the platforms? Just make the parking lot smaller.

There are two major constraints: a) heritage impacts and b) grade.

A) The Via Rail station is a heritage building, and putting new tracks on the north side of the corridor would have to weave around it. Further west, there is another building on the west side that I'm not 100% about, but it may qualify as heritage too, and would be another building to thread the track around.

B) There is a significant grade difference on both sides of the corridor, which would require significant (read: costly) structure work. We can go on and on all we want about it being worth it, but I'm sure Metrolinx has bigger priorities (e.g. Milton line).