GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Richard White]

I think the main problem is how to handled the on/off-loading of a full GO Train.

That's ~1200 passengers. Moving them, even by articulated bus is something like 9 buses, at crush-load, probably more like 12+ to be efficient and allow for strollers.

Its not beyond do-able, but its certainly a challenge.

When there are no crush loaded GO trains involved you can get away with buses.

The Green Line goes to the Train Station from Table Rock Point and works just well. Having LRT's run anywhere near the falls is asking for problems with all the crowds.

 

[Northern Light]

When there are no crush loaded GO trains involved you can get away with buses.

The Green Line goes to the Train Station from Table Rock Point and works just well. Having LRT's run anywhere near the falls is asking for problems with all the crowds.

If GO ran much more frequent service, and then cut the train size, so that that maximum crowd were about ~600 at any one time, that should be plausible to service with Artics.

Get it down to under 400 and conventional buses could work.

How low you can get the number is an interesting question, as there is certainly latent demand, and additional, more frequent and faster service would almost certainly spike traffic from today's levels, but by how much I don't know.

I would imagine we're talking about getting service down to 30M apart (or less) during key times, I don't see that happening w/o a new canal crossing.

Interesting question, if 1B drops into anyone's lap to induce more people onto transit going to and within Niagara, where do you drop the $$ first?

 

[Richard White]

If GO ran much more frequent service, and then cut the train size, so that that maximum crowd were about ~600 at any one time, that should be plausible to service with Artics.

Get it down to under 400 and conventional buses could work.

How low you can get the number is an interesting question, as there is certainly latent demand, and additional, more frequent and faster service would almost certainly spike traffic from today's levels, but by how much I don't know.

I would imagine we're talking about getting service down to 30M apart (or less) during key times, I don't see that happening w/o a new canal crossing.

Interesting question, if 1B drops into anyone's lap to induce more people onto transit going to and within Niagara, where do you drop the $$ first?

I am thinking a hyperloop.

 

[christiesplits]

I was reviewing GO Transit's current bike policy on trains.

I seem to recall that bikes were not permitted during rush-hour on trains in either direction, not just peak direction. Did this recently change?

Also, just anecdotaly, I've found that there seems to be less space for bikes on coaches recently. I think this is due in part to the increase of food delivery cyclists.

 

[Richard White]

I was reviewing GO Transit's current bike policy on trains.

View attachment 479227

I seem to recall that bikes were not permitted during rush-hour on trains in either direction, not just peak direction. Did this recently change?

Also, just anecdotaly, I've found that there seems to be less space for bikes on coaches recently. I think this is due in part to the increase of food delivery cyclists.

Honestly, food delivery couriers are the worst.

Every morning I see at least 3 of them crowd onto the subway during the morning rush hour with their e-bikes and bags. The bags are massive and the bikes are not small either. There really needs to be enforcement.

 

[reaperexpress]

I was reviewing GO Transit's current bike policy on trains.

View attachment 479227

I seem to recall that bikes were not permitted during rush-hour on trains in either direction, not just peak direction. Did this recently change?

Also, just anecdotaly, I've found that there seems to be less space for bikes on coaches recently. I think this is due in part to the increase of food delivery cyclists.

I seem to recall that it was always peak-direction, but there used to also be a rule about no bikes in Union Station at rush hour

 

[robmausser]

Why not just dedicated BRT lanes? I'm skeptical passenger volume warrant LRT.

Honestly I think that a place like Niagara Falls warrants the attractiveness of a streetcar or LRT more than almost any area in Ontario. BRT's are more affordable and can be more functional but for a tourist attraction the beautification of an area is paramount.

 

[LNahid2000]

I seem to recall that it was always peak-direction, but there used to also be a rule about no bikes in Union Station at rush hour

That's still a thing according to this page:

Biking | Your Commute to GO | GO Transit

Riding your bike is another convenient way to get to GO stops and stations. Bring them onboard so that you can continue to explore the region!

www.gotransit.com

 

[Coolibop]

I was reviewing GO Transit's current bike policy on trains.

View attachment 479227

I seem to recall that bikes were not permitted during rush-hour on trains in either direction, not just peak direction. Did this recently change?

Also, just anecdotaly, I've found that there seems to be less space for bikes on coaches recently. I think this is due in part to the increase of food delivery cyclists.

We've had this discussion before but can't find...

The schedules one thing and the customer service teams say another. I tried bringing it to their attention there is a slight difference but they didn't update.

Essentially one (schedule) says no bikes at union period, full stop...and also on rush hour trains leaving/departing during rush (mon-Fri). And then there's what you posted above.

 

[crs1026]

Honestly, food delivery couriers are the worst.

Every morning I see at least 3 of them crowd onto the subway during the morning rush hour with their e-bikes and bags. The bags are massive and the bikes are not small either. There really needs to be enforcement.

One wouldn’t expect delivery people to afford downtown rent, so these folks do in many cases have to commute from places with lower cost housing.

I’m told that ML is quite aware of the growth in bike traffic, especially the food delivery bikes, but does not see the need for any changes.

Fun fact: In the bike friendly Netherlands, bringing a bike on a local or regional train requires purchase of a bike ticket - cost 7.5 euros, and only available off peak - but of course, bike sharing is pretty much available in abundance at pretty well every destination station. One does see people taking bikes on the trains, but a tiny fraction of cyclists do this, nowhere near the volume even that one sees here in the GTA.

I can’t see any type of elaborate higher order transit being affordable for Niagara Falls. The most possible arrangement might be bus combined with fleeted GO service to spread the crowd out timewise…. But even that asks a lot of CN and the Seaway. And if that actually grows the business further…. waiting for a bus may just have to be.

Perhaps a bike sharing stand with even a hundred sharable bikes at Niagara Falls station would cut down the lineup for the bus a little.

What a nice problem to have.

- Paul

 

[afransen]

Honestly I think that a place like Niagara Falls warrants the attractiveness of a streetcar or LRT more than almost any area in Ontario. BRT's are more affordable and can be more functional but for a tourist attraction the beautification of an area is paramount.

In a world of unlimited resources, I might agree with you. BRT you can run smaller vehicles in winter without cutting frequency to 30 minutes or running empty vehicles. And if we were really smart, we would have buses that could be used in other transit systems outside of peak tourism season.

 

[innsertnamehere]

single-track streetcar through the old railway ROW with maybe 3-4 streetcar vehicles operating on it would be fine, and probably minimally expensive.

Run it from the GO station down to Marineland or whatever inevitably ends up replacing it with 6-7 little curbside stops and a ~15 minute target frequency to keep costs low. The ~250 person capacity of a modern LRV should be able to handle most of the demand from a GO train unloading, given the % of passengers which will be picked up / dropped off, walk off, use other services, etc.

 

[Northern Light]

single-track streetcar through the old railway ROW with maybe 3-4 streetcar vehicles operating on it would be fine, and probably minimally expensive.

Run it from the GO station down to Marineland or whatever inevitably ends up replacing it with 6-7 little curbside stops and a ~15 minute target frequency to keep costs low. The ~250 person capacity of a modern LRV should be able to handle most of the demand from a GO train unloading, given the % of passengers which will be picked up / dropped off, walk off, use other services, etc.

The old ROW from the Niagara VIA/GO station doesn't reach Marineland; Falls View Casino is sitting on top of the old ROW. The more or less intact portion is here:

There's more intact to the west of the Casino (with track still in place, albeit in shoddy condition).

Most of the intact ROW to the east is currently a bike path.

The old rail bridge across the 420 is gone:

This is the end of the intact ROW, more or less:

(east side, Clifton Hill intersection)

There aren't really any 'buildings' in the way, to the west, but there is 'stuff'

Most of the rest of the route is a limited use road and parking (as far as Fallsview):

So you're looking at ~3km or so.

To get any further west you'd have to shift the route, or demo Fallsview (I'd happily vote for option 2) LOL

Still, superficially feasible. But without passing tracks, you'd have a good sized service gap, as the vehicles would need to move in lock step in one direction.

* I should add I think putting a passing track in, in one or more spots appears feasible.

 

[Richard White]

single-track streetcar through the old railway ROW with maybe 3-4 streetcar vehicles operating on it would be fine, and probably minimally expensive.

Run it from the GO station down to Marineland or whatever inevitably ends up replacing it with 6-7 little curbside stops and a ~15 minute target frequency to keep costs low. The ~250 person capacity of a modern LRV should be able to handle most of the demand from a GO train unloading, given the % of passengers which will be picked up / dropped off, walk off, use other services, etc.

It makes no sense to run an LRT in Niagara Falls for 4 months out of the year. From late September to early May there are not many tourists and even then only on weekends.

It would be overkill.

 

[Willybru21]

One wouldn’t expect delivery people to afford downtown rent, so these folks do in many cases have to commute from places with lower cost housing.

I’m told that ML is quite aware of the growth in bike traffic, especially the food delivery bikes, but does not see the need for any changes.

Fun fact: In the bike friendly Netherlands, bringing a bike on a local or regional train requires purchase of a bike ticket - cost 7.5 euros, and only available off peak - but of course, bike sharing is pretty much available in abundance at pretty well every destination station. One does see people taking bikes on the trains, but a tiny fraction of cyclists do this, nowhere near the volume even that one sees here in the GTA.

I can’t see any type of elaborate higher order transit being affordable for Niagara Falls. The most possible arrangement might be bus combined with fleeted GO service to spread the crowd out timewise…. But even that asks a lot of CN and the Seaway. And if that actually grows the business further…. waiting for a bus may just have to be.

Perhaps a bike sharing stand with even a hundred sharable bikes at Niagara Falls station would cut down the lineup for the bus a little.

What a nice problem to have.

- Paul

GO did run a train last week that was specifically for food delivery bikers, most likely with a bike coach. They also aren’t using all 6 bike coaches right now, GO might be keeping one on the sidelines for future trains line this: