GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[accura407]

In terms of the new Barrie Waterfront/Allendale station, google maps shows that the line has no rail tracks going further north into the city core but there is one rail line that deviates west...I'm sure barrie has a plan to put in a mini waterfront streetcar from the go station to the city core (someday)...

So I am guessing that this will be the permanent terminus of the Barrie Line forever?

Is there any other GO Line that has a permanent terminus like this? The only other one I can think of is Lakeshore West to Hamilton TH&B Station.

 

[CDL.TO]

Is there any other GO Line that has a permanent terminus like this? The only other one I can think of is Lakeshore West to Hamilton TH&B Station.

Personally, I think extending Lakeshore West to a station near Centennial Parkway in south Stoney Creek (with an intermediate stop somewhere in East Hamilton) would make a lot of sense if GO could get agreement from CP.

As for permanent termini, it could be a long time before we see the Stouffville line extended past Lincolnville. The line continues to Uxbridge and GO owns the tracks, but the whole thing runs through the Greenbelt. If it was extended to Uxbridge, that would be a real permenant terminus as the tracks don't extend beyond that point.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Extending to Uxbridge is in the long terms plans, but your right in that it won't ever go beyond that.

The CP Hamilton sub is a busy, slow speed, single track, none-signaled line with a busy rail yard east of the station where freights are often left parked on the main line for long stretches of time. Go would have to put in a lot of money for a short stretch and I don't think they're to keen on that when they can use the CN line as an alternative. In other words - not happening.

Also, Metrolinx is still negotiating with CN for the Oakville sub. They want the track up to Burlington (Burlington West mile 32.2) and are finally willing to drop the biggest amount yet for any purchase.

Breakdown of GO's ownership afterwards;
Lakeshore East - 100% (31.5 of 31.5 miles)
Stouffville - 100% (30.3 of 30.3 miles)
Richmond Hill - 9.5% (2 of 21 miles)
Barrie - 100% (63 of 63 miles
Georgetown - 58% (17 of 29.4 miles)
Milton - 16% (4.9 of 31.2 miles)
Lakeshore West - 81% (32.2 of 39.9 miles)
(entire length from the center of Union to the farthest point, not including layover yards though, for each line)

Total - 73.5% (180.9 of 246.3 miles)
vs 3 years ago it was just - 39% (96 of 246.3 miles)

(not included - Go owned Don branch, 3 miles of track)

 

[ShonTron]

Personally, I think extending Lakeshore West to a station near Centennial Parkway in south Stoney Creek (with an intermediate stop somewhere in East Hamilton) would make a lot of sense if GO could get agreement from CP.

As for permanent termini, it could be a long time before we see the Stouffville line extended past Lincolnville. The line continues to Uxbridge and GO owns the tracks, but the whole thing runs through the Greenbelt. If it was extended to Uxbridge, that would be a real permenant terminus as the tracks don't extend beyond that point.

Yes, while one wished that the rail link to Lindsay were not abandoned (the Stouffville-Uxbridge section of the Uxbridge Sub survived abandonment because GO wanted to preserve the corridor), but Lindsay would be best served by a train-bus link to Oshawa/Bowmanville in the short term and in the long term, a bus link from a Peterborough Line station at Pontypool.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Extending to Uxbridge is in the long terms plans, but your right in that it won't ever go beyond that.

The CP Hamilton sub is a busy, slow speed, single track, none-signaled line with a busy rail yard east of the station where freights are often left parked on the main line for long stretches of time. Go would have to put in a lot of money for a short stretch and I don't think they're to keen on that when they can use the CN line as an alternative. In other words - not happening.

Also, Metrolinx is still negotiating with CN for the Oakville sub. They way the track up to Burlington (Burlington West mile 32.2) and are finally willing to drop the biggest amount yet for any purchase.

Breakdown of GO's ownership afterwards;
Lakeshore East - 100% (31.5 of 31.5 miles)
Stouffville - 100% (30.3 of 30.3 miles)
Richmond Hill - 9.5% (2 of 21 miles)
Barrie - 100% (63 of 63 miles
Georgetown - 58% (17 of 29.4 miles)
Milton - 16% (4.9 of 31.2 miles)
Lakeshore West - 81% (32.2 of 39.9 miles)
(entire length from the center of Union to the farthest point, not including layover yards though, for each line)

Total - 73.5% (180.9 of 246.3 miles)
vs 3 years ago it was just - 39% (96 of 246.3 miles)

(not included - Go owned Don branch, 3 miles of track)

Vegeta, when will that Hamilton James Street Station be ready for opening? 2015?

 

[vegeta_skyline]

An environmental assessment & an expansion plan study is already underway for expansion along the Niagara Falls route for rush hour monday-friday train service. However, I can tell you that they are EXTREMELY keen on expanding ALL DAY service to Hamilton ASAP. Its next up on the priority(not just in terms of importance but of what can be done sooner) after the Kitchener Rail Expansion.

Management(the contractor - operations side of the service) is already preparing for it(by preparing I mean personal wise, since it takes YEARS of training to become an engineer of which we have a bit of a shortage of), they wouldn't be doing so unless GO told them to.

Expansion plans;
Lakeshore East to Bowmanville - high priority, mid term
Stouffville to Uxbridge - low priority, long term
Stouffville service expansion - mid priority, short term
Seaton line - low priority, long term
Locust Hill line - low priority, long term
Peterborough - no current plans
Richmond Hill expansion - high priority, mid term
Richmond Hill service expansion - low priority, long term
Barrie expansion (one station) - high priority, short term
Barrie service expansion - mid priority, short term
Bolton line - mid priority, long term
ARL link - highest priority, mid term
Georgetown to Kitchener - high priority, short term
Georgetown service expansion - high priority, mid term
Orangeville line - no current plans
Milton service expansion - high priority, mid term
Lakeshore West expansion to Hamilton - high priority, short term
Lakeshore service expansion - high priority, short term
Niagara line mon-fri service - high priority, mid term

where as short term is within the next 3 years
mid term in 3 to 6 years
and long term 6+ years

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

An environmental assessment & an expansion plan study is already underway for expansion along the Niagara Falls route for rush hour monday-friday train service. However, I can tell you that they are EXTREMELY keen on expanding ALL DAY service to Hamilton ASAP. Its next up on the priority(not just in terms of importance but of what can be done sooner) after the Kitchener Rail Expansion.

Management(the contractor - operations side of the service) is already preparing for it(by preparing I mean personal wise, since it takes YEARS of training to become an engineer of which we have a bit of a shortage of), they wouldn't be doing so unless GO told them to.

Expansion plans;
Lakeshore East to Bowmanville - high priority, mid term
Stouffville to Uxbridge - low priority, long term
Stouffville service expansion - mid priority, short term
Seaton line - low priority, long term
Locust Hill line - low priority, long term
Peterborough - no current plans
Richmond Hill expansion - high priority, mid term
Richmond Hill service expansion - low priority, long term
Barrie expansion (one station) - high priority, short term
Barrie service expansion - mid priority, short term
Bolton line - mid priority, long term
ARL link - highest priority, mid term
Georgetown to Kitchener - high priority, short term
Georgetown service expansion - high priority, mid term
Orangeville line - no current plans
Milton service expansion - high priority, mid term
Lakeshore West expansion to Hamilton - high priority, short term
Lakeshore service expansion - high priority, short term
Niagara line mon-fri service - high priority, mid term

where as short term is within the next 3 years
mid term in 3 to 6 years
and long term 6+ years

Thank you very much! I see the Seaton and Locust Hill Service is of low priority? I thought the Feds wanted that done, or is it owned by CP.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Not a problem.
Yes the tracks are owned by CP and both lines must go over their busy mainline. Because of this CP is very resistant - see Milton only WORSE as the Milton line deals only with CP's East-West traffic, while the Belleville sub deals with both the East-West traffic from the Galt sub and the North-South traffic from the Macteir sub. They would require extensive track upgrades, new main lines, expanded bridges (some of which are quite large) and possibly fly-under/overs. All to serve area's less dense then any of the current lines (though that shouldn't disqualify them from getting train service by any means).
They are in the big move plan & GO 2020. But there's no Environmental Assessment or service plan being developed for them at this time unlike the short term & mid term projects. Unfortunately there's only so much money to go around and these lines at this time would serve less people at a greater cost then the other plans.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Not a problem.
Yes the tracks are owned by CP and both lines must go over their busy mainline. Because of this CP is very resistant - see Milton only WORSE as the Milton line deals only with CP's East-West traffic, while the Belleville sub deals with both the East-West traffic from the Galt sub and the North-South traffic from the Macteir sub. They would require extensive track upgrades, new main lines, expanded bridges (some of which are quite large) and possibly fly-under/overs. All to serve area's less dense then any of the current lines (though that shouldn't disqualify them from getting train service by any means).
They are in the big move plan & GO 2020. But there's no Environmental Assessment or service plan being developed for them at this time unlike the short term & mid term projects. Unfortunately there's only so much money to go around and these lines at this time would serve less people at a greater cost then the other plans.

Thank You again!

One more question: What about half hourly service on the Lakeshore lines? When will that be implemented?

 

[vegeta_skyline]

lol, keep 'em coming.
Actually the costs of increasing service on the Georgetown & Milton lines are likely very similar. Similar in overall length, similar number of tracks 2-3 mainlines (in the sections where GO trains are sharing the tracks with mainline freights), similar methods of train control (exact same system of control - CTC, slightly different operating procedures). CP just seems to be more stubborn when it comes to these things then CN. Considering that the Georgetown line runs on CN's busy East-West corridor the Halton sub, which is equivalent to CP's Galt sub (where the Milton line runs on). For whatever reason GO & CN are more amendable to reach compromises then GO & CP. Perhaps because GO & CN traffic have been much more intermingled in GO's history or maybe because CN has had to deal extensively with other operations using they're lines such as GO, VIA and other short-line's like railamerica (http://www.railamerica.com/Railservices/GEXR.aspx) and CP itself! Where as CP rarely allows other company's to run over its tracks - though AMT in Montreal(they're version of GO transit, albeit significantly less service) runs more on CP tracks than CN's. Though different regions have different operating requirements and levels of congestion, as well as management who makes the final call. Personally I think CP's just trying to get as much as they can out of GO/Metrolinx/the government to pay for track any expansion which is more then required for the purposed levels of service.

 

[EnviroTO]

The Bowmanville extension is something which seems to have a lot of political weight behind it. The business case on other lines is far more solid yet the Bowmanville extension still seems to be a priority. I like how it reaches Oshawa and the other communities in a more central location but with the cost it is a wonder the government still has an appetite for it.

 

[nfitz]

The Bowmanville extension is something which seems to have a lot of political weight behind it. The business case on other lines is far more solid yet the Bowmanville extension still seems to be a priority. I like how it reaches Oshawa and the other communities in a more central location but with the cost it is a wonder the government still has an appetite for it.

I'd think the best part about the Bowmanville extension is that it's really an extension into Oshawa itself, with the new Oshawa stations; I'd think the Bowmanville station is almost secondary to the whole thing - and not the expensive part of the plan. BTW, didn't we have some Bowmanville GO trains running on the CN line before the Tories cancelled them in the 1990s?

And what about that half-hourly service on Lakeshore - at least in the central portions. That would be so useful ... tired of arriving at Union and finding it faster to take TTC because I've just missed a once-an-hour train ...

 

[vegeta_skyline]

1/2 hour service has been rumor to be in the works for several years now along with Barrie & Stouffville mid-day service. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure what the issue is as to why they have not been implemented yet. Its frustrating becasue we all know the demand is there. Perhaps they're waiting for more coaches to arrive? Yes its true that there are a lot of unused consists mid-day, but there are quite a few logistical problems in using them. They can't use the same consist all day because it would run out of fuel half way through the day. Most for the trains for the outpost lines are stored at Bathurst or Don yard mid day. There are no refueling facilities at those yards and they want to have them all at the ready for they're PM runs. Track congestion was little bit of an issue on the Oakville sub with the freights but not anymore with 3 MT all the way to Burlington. We're also a little tight on man power at the moment. I'd imagine that GO would be well aware of that situation but off hand or at least publicly it doesn't seem to be a major concern for them. Theres a LOT of station work/track work around stations going on right now - Whitby, Pickering, Mimico, Long Branch, Clarkson, Bronte, Burlington. And theres still the congested 2 MT portion East of Guildwood to Durham Jct, but thats really only during rush hour... Could be that they are waiting until they've purchased the Oakville sub from CN to eliminate the wheelage fee's they pay them. Hard to say what it is, I hear less details on service increases then system expansion (kinda weird, should be the other way around). But yeah we really do need it, its been a long time coming.

As far as I know GO trains have never operated to Bowmanville.

 

[nfitz]

I've just assumed that it's another broken McGuinty promise - and the government never provided the necessary increase to the operating budget. I've written to Wynne a couple of times, and the answer is always "when money is available".

It does seem that they are so keen to spend $billions for capital expenditures, but aren't providing the little extra to run the trains now that they've added all the extra infrastructure.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

lol, keep 'em coming.
Actually the costs of increasing service on the Georgetown & Milton lines are likely very similar. Similar in overall length, similar number of tracks 2-3 mainlines (in the sections where GO trains are sharing the tracks with mainline freights), similar methods of train control (exact same system of control - CTC, slightly different operating procedures). CP just seems to be more stubborn when it comes to these things then CN. Considering that the Georgetown line runs on CN's busy East-West corridor the Halton sub, which is equivalent to CP's Galt sub (where the Milton line runs on). For whatever reason GO & CN are more amendable to reach compromises then GO & CP. Perhaps because GO & CN traffic have been much more intermingled in GO's history or maybe because CN has had to deal extensively with other operations using they're lines such as GO, VIA and other short-line's like railamerica (http://www.railamerica.com/Railservices/GEXR.aspx) and CP itself! Where as CP rarely allows other company's to run over its tracks - though AMT in Montreal(they're version of GO transit, albeit significantly less service) runs more on CP tracks than CN's. Though different regions have different operating requirements and levels of congestion, as well as management who makes the final call. Personally I think CP's just trying to get as much as they can out of GO/Metrolinx/the government to pay for track any expansion which is more then required for the purposed levels of service.

Thank You!

Nice to be in the know for once.

nfitz. I agree. And I think hudak might screw us too....