GO Transit Midtown Corridor

[EnviroTO]

It isn't that a transportation corridor where the CP line is wouldn't add value... it is that CP is there with their freight mainline. If the government built the freight by-pass then a midtown line would be a no brainer. But we know the freight by-pass is not being built... at least not by this government. A freight mainline and high-frequency passenger rail running next to each other changes the risk calculations significantly and therefore increases the costs significantly. That small derailment near Simcoe St in Oshawa would likely have killed people if there were frequent passenger trains on the line on a parallel track. When GO decided they were going to have regular trains to Oshawa they didn't share the tracks with CN for good reason because isolated tracks and putting some separation between the corridors decreases risks as well as improves operations. The challenge is the high costs and the fact it would be investing a whole lot of money into a corridor that isn't owned by the government. At least with the freight by-pass option the government walks away with the midtown corridor and the Georgetown corridor as assets, but with investments purely into the midtown corridor the government doesn't end up owning any assets.

 

[W. K. Lis]

See link for more information.

Existing GO, CN, and CP rail configuration, image courtesy IBI Group study commissioned by four municipalities

GO, CN, and CP rail configuration with the Missing Link in place, image courtesy IBI Group study

Can see the freight line near or above Steeles Avenue getting more freight traffic.

 

[robmausser]

I don't really see how outlandish it is, what's the major difference between City Rail and GO RER? Almost everything in that proposal (excluding a couple of stations) has been discussed seriously at some point or another.

Thats my point, in 2010 it was outlandish, but since then its become a serious discussion. Same with the midtown GO, currently its seen as outlandish but at some point that will change.

 

[Allandale25]

It bothers me to no end that people listen to his ridiculous and outlandish ideas.

Always the opportunity for others to post their ideas to YouTube.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From link.

Looks like they left space for one or two (with shifting) tracks for east-west rail.

 

[White Pine]

If Canada ever gets real high-speed passenger rail service, the midtown corridor could also be a good route for it in Toronto.

I mean that some of this line was to be part of VIA's HFR (to Peterborough and beyond) so it could have potential for that. That being said, aside from the fact that it's slightly too close to the Bloor line, the idea in itself isn't terrible. I'm not sure how far west the line goes, but I imagine in the east that, given DMU's, it could sort of become an RER style line to the Pickering Airport, if that ever happens?

 

[ARG1]

It isn't that a transportation corridor where the CP line is wouldn't add value... it is that CP is there with their freight mainline. If the government built the freight by-pass then a midtown line would be a no brainer. But we know the freight by-pass is not being built... at least not by this government. A freight mainline and high-frequency passenger rail running next to each other changes the risk calculations significantly and therefore increases the costs significantly. That small derailment near Simcoe St in Oshawa would likely have killed people if there were frequent passenger trains on the line on a parallel track. When GO decided they were going to have regular trains to Oshawa they didn't share the tracks with CN for good reason because isolated tracks and putting some separation between the corridors decreases risks as well as improves operations. The challenge is the high costs and the fact it would be investing a whole lot of money into a corridor that isn't owned by the government. At least with the freight by-pass option the government walks away with the midtown corridor and the Georgetown corridor as assets, but with investments purely into the midtown corridor the government doesn't end up owning any assets.

A freight bypass is inevitable. At some point people will realize that large km long freight trains carrying dangerous explosive chemicals running right next to highrises is a catastrophe waiting to happen, and the midtown corridor will have to be vacated. Even if it doesn't, running a passenger rail line next to Freight isn't impossible, the only thing holding passenger rail service on the corridor is CP themselves, which makes running trains here more of a legal/political issue rather than a logistical issue.

 

[drum118]

A freight bypass is inevitable. At some point people will realize that large km long freight trains carrying dangerous explosive chemicals running right next to highrises is a catastrophe waiting to happen, and the midtown corridor will have to be vacated. Even if it doesn't, running a passenger rail line next to Freight isn't impossible, the only thing holding passenger rail service on the corridor is CP themselves, which makes running trains here more of a legal/political issue rather than a logistical issue.

Well who do you blame for having "HIGHRISE NEXT TO A RAILLINE???" "THE CITY AND DEVELOPERS"

No matter where you relocate a Rail Line, you still have the risk of a derailment and explosion. Combining 2 RR into a single corridor only increase the risk 1,000% as well shutting down 2 major mainline as well taking out a neighborhood.

CP Has every legal right as well CN to be where they are at this time.

You want to move CP, then open up your checkbook to pay all the cost to build this new line as neither CP or CN has have any obrogation to pay 1 cent for the move. Winnipeg being trying to move CN since the 90's and have gave up trying to do it in the past few years. If Winnipeg can't do, how do you expect Mississauga, Brampton and others to do not on their dime??? York Region oppose this move.

My family and I were forced to vacate Mississauga in 1979 for over a week due to a chemical derailment that house over 250.000 residents.

One reason Crash Wall must be built along the Rail Corridor for residential development as well 100 feet back these days, regardless who line it is..

 

[lenaitch]

^^ I'm old enough to remember when the CN York Sub. ran largely through farm fields. It's not their fault it's now largely subdivisions up to the fenceline.

 

[ssiguy2]

The Mid-town Line is an excellent idea as it is the only viable option for getting across the city without going thru Union.

If the Eglinton Line was a true "crosstown" than Mid-town RER may not be as high a priority but the reality is that it isn't. It has too many stops {both at grade & underground} , is too slow, too unreliable, and too little capacity to be a real crosstown route. Eglinton is fine for connections to GO, subway, local trips etc but it is essentially useless to travel across the city.

 

[kingkam]

The midtown corridor needs to extend much further than just service Toronto.

We need it going as far as Peterborough for sure.

We need a variation that will originate in Pickering/Ajax/Whitby.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Mid-town Line is an excellent idea as it is the only viable option for getting across the city without going thru Union.

If the Eglinton Line was a true "crosstown" than Mid-town RER may not be as high a priority but the reality is that it isn't. It has too many stops {both at grade & underground} , is too slow, too unreliable, and too little capacity to be a real crosstown route. Eglinton is fine for connections to GO, subway, local trips etc but it is essentially useless to travel across the city.

In New York City, their "express" rapid transit stations are about every other "local" station. (There are buses on the surface that provide a more "local, local" service.) The MidTown could be equivalent to an "express" service, but passing much more "local" stations.

 

[allengeorge]

Even if it doesn't, running a passenger rail line next to Freight isn't impossible, the only thing holding passenger rail service on the corridor is CP themselves, which makes running trains here more of a legal/political issue rather than a logistical issue.

The word ‘only’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. From everything I’ve read, it’s almost prohibitively expensive - and those are the guesses, not the result of serious negotiations.

 

[ARG1]

The word ‘only’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. From everything I’ve read, it’s almost prohibitively expensive - and those are the guesses, not the result of serious negotiations.

True, which is why we're not seeing serious action at the moment. EnviroTO was arguing from an technical feasibility viewpoint, so that's what I was responding to.

Well who do you blame for having "HIGHRISE NEXT TO A RAILLINE???" "THE CITY AND DEVELOPERS"

Blame? Downtown Toronto is growing rapidly - we have a massive housing shortage, and we need land to develop on. A railway ROW that could potentially be used for a really strong midtown line in the future is actually a really smart place to start doing high density development assuming we eventually do acquire the line (its a very big assumption I know).

No matter where you relocate a Rail Line, you still have the risk of a derailment and explosion. Combining 2 RR into a single corridor only increase the risk 1,000% as well shutting down 2 major mainline as well taking out a neighborhood.

The reason the York Sub was built in the first place was to avoid having these large CN Trains running through downtown Toronto. At the current moment the York Sub is clear from a lot of development and is much less of a risk for most residents (granted it not perfect, but its far safer than anywhere along the Midtown Line)

CP Has every legal right as well CN to be where they are at this time.

Nobody is disputing this.

You want to move CP, then open up your checkbook to pay all the cost to build this new line as neither CP or CN has have any obrogation to pay 1 cent for the move. Winnipeg being trying to move CN since the 90's and have gave up trying to do it in the past few years. If Winnipeg can't do, how do you expect Mississauga, Brampton and others to do not on their dime??? York Region oppose this move.

Again, who are you arguing against? It will cost a lot to build the missing link, nobody is denying that fact, but its still a project that opens up so much potential for future service and expanding transit options. Maybe we can finally get the Feds to actually pay for something useful (granted, considering the spending spree they did prior to election it might be too early to make that joke).

 

[drum118]

True, which is why we're not seeing serious action at the moment. EnviroTO was arguing from an technical feasibility viewpoint, so that's what I was responding to.

Blame? Downtown Toronto is growing rapidly - we have a massive housing shortage, and we need land to develop on. A railway ROW that could potentially be used for a really strong midtown line in the future is actually a really smart place to start doing high density development assuming we eventually do acquire the line (its a very big assumption I know).

The reason the York Sub was built in the first place was to avoid having these large CN Trains running through downtown Toronto. At the current moment the York Sub is clear from a lot of development and is much less of a risk for most residents (granted it not perfect, but its far safer than anywhere along the Midtown Line)

Nobody is disputing this.

Again, who are you arguing against? It will cost a lot to build the missing link, nobody is denying that fact, but its still a project that opens up so much potential for future service and expanding transit options. Maybe we can finally get the Feds to actually pay for something useful (granted, considering the spending spree they did prior to election it might be too early to make that joke).

60+ years ago it was the waterfront. Today its CP line. Tomorrow it will Be CN and the not the missing link.

When do you stop moving line as well where when poor urban planning is causing part of the problem?>?

Everyone wants things that are manufacture from those tank cars and unless everyone is willing to stop buying those items, tank cars will continue to grow to meet the needs of the growing population.

Is $5 Billion worth more to built tracks or is more important to be use in building 100,000's affordable housing units as money doesn't grow on trees and putting a huge debit load on future generation of kids?????

The number of trains on CP/CN line is about 50% less than there used to be due to the fact that one train carry the same load as 3.

The Fed's are doing this alone that I know of and only 8 miles.

Alghabra provides update on Lac-Megantic bypass project​