GO Transit Midtown Corridor

[T3G]

To use the subways (Line 2 or Line 4) or GO Midtown Train to get to their final destination.

Is there any HSR system anywhere in the world that is set up like this? Is there any rail system in the world set up like this?

The only possible time scenario in which something like this could happen is at airports, because of the nature of the things they have to build them far away from any high rise construction. It is accepted as a necessary evil. I have never seen this happen with trains, because every major city of the world has a train station in, or extremely near, its city centre.

Dropping people off in the middle of nowhere and telling them "screw you, to get downtown you'll need to transfer twice" (and it will be downtown that these people are headed, because there is nothing in the suburbs worth going to) would be positively disgraceful. If these were the transfers that were proposed, you would achieve more bang for your buck if you set the untold billions HSR would cost on fire.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Is there any HSR system anywhere in the world that is set up like this? Is there any rail system in the world set up like this?

The only possible time scenario in which something like this could happen is at airports, because of the nature of the things they have to build them far away from any high rise construction. It is accepted as a necessary evil. I have never seen this happen with trains, because every major city of the world has a train station in, or extremely near, its city centre.

Dropping people off in the middle of nowhere and telling them "screw you, to get downtown you'll need to transfer twice" (and it will be downtown that these people are headed, because there is nothing in the suburbs worth going to) would be positively disgraceful. If these were the transfers that were proposed, you would achieve more bang for your buck if you set the untold billions HSR would cost on fire.

To save money on acquiring land for high-speed rail and its stations, they may have to. This (McCowan & Sheppard) might be the "east side" station , Pearson Transit Hub will be the "west side" station, and North Toronto/Summerhill (Line 1) will be the "central" station.

Optimization of High-Speed Railway Station Location Selection Based on Accessibility and Environmental Impact​

See link.

High-speed railway (HSR) planners aim to select locations that optimize the overall utility or benefit of HSR stations by satisfying various desirable requirements. Among other factors, accessibility and environmental impact are important considerations for selecting a location for an HSR station. The desirable requirements of these two factors include improved access to, and intermodal integration with, existing transportation facilities and services (like airports, train stations, and bus stops); avoidance of environmentally sensitive areas (such as water bodies, wetlands, and forest) and land with higher right-of-way costs; and accommodation of strategic necessities (for example, proximity to city centers and socioeconomic development hubs). We quantify the overall utility of an HSR station by analyzing the extent to which a location satisfies these desirable requirements. For this, suitable utility functions were developed and evaluated. To obtain individual utility scores, we assigned appropriate weights based on relative importance. We then estimated the overall utility of a location as the weighted summation of these utility scores. A GIS-based analytical framework was specifically developed for geo-processing, mapping, and visualization of the geospatial data analysis and result representation. This utility-based quantification and identification process would be useful to planners in assessing an area and determining the most suitable station locations for an HSR project. The proposed model was used to identify the potential station locations along the Mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR corridor in India and to compare the obtained results with the planned locations of the project.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not sure that dropping people at Summerhill and Yonge is any less central or any less convenient than dropping them downtown, except if they want to transfer to the GO network. A great many travellers might be grateful for a shorter last mile commute, assuming they transfer to TTC.

As Union station fills up, even after the Ontario Line provides some relief, something needs to shift, and North Toronto is not really a bad location. There's a certain logic to having Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto trains run right through to Pearson....in which case North Toronto might actually be a short cut.

Personally I would route HxR to Union, and focus on secondary GO service to North Toronto. But many options may work.

And yes, it's a problem to leave for my grandkids, not something to happen in this decade (or maybe the next!)

- Paul

 

[T3G]

To save money on acquiring land for high-speed rail and its stations, they may have to. This might be the "east side" station , Pearson Transit Hub will be the "west side" station, and North Toronto/Summerhill (Line 1) will be the "central" station.

Optimization of High-Speed Railway Station Location Selection Based on Accessibility and Environmental Impact​

See link.

I don't think routing the service through the North Toronto sub would deliver great cost savings. It's a two track corridor with very little space. You will need to build more tracks, knock down all the bridges on the line, expropriate properties, and build a station at Summerhill.

I'm not opposed to the idea of running GO service on North Toronto, but the thought of running a flagship intercity service anywhere but the main train station leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. It's going to cost a ton, anyway, might as well get it right.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I don't think routing the service through the North Toronto sub would deliver great cost savings. It's a two track corridor with very little space. You will need to build more tracks, knock down all the bridges on the line, expropriate properties, and build a station at Summerhill.

I'm not opposed to the idea of running GO service on North Toronto, but the thought of running a flagship intercity service anywhere but the main train station leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. It's going to cost a ton, anyway, might as well get it right.

Unless they decide to convert the 401 or 407 for (elevated?) high-speed rail use.

 

[micheal_can]

I don't think the Go Transit Midtown will happen in our lifetimes... Probably 2050+ project... What do others think?

I could see it late 2030s/2040s.

To save money on acquiring land for high-speed rail and its stations, they may have to. This (McCowan & Sheppard) might be the "east side" station , Pearson Transit Hub will be the "west side" station, and North Toronto/Summerhill (Line 1) will be the "central" station.

Optimization of High-Speed Railway Station Location Selection Based on Accessibility and Environmental Impact​

See link.

That could be possible.
If that was the case, this Corridor would not be used by GO.

Unless they decide to convert the 401 or 407 for (elevated?) high-speed rail use.

Why not the Gardiner and DVP? Then you can get into downtown? There are plans of tearing down the viaduct, so maybe it gets torn down and a new one for HSR is built.

 

[Sunnyside]

I don’t see why they would use Summerhill. While from an access standpoint your ability to get downtown isn’t that bad, in a hierarchy of services your intercity rail (HFR) should go to the absolute centre of the city if it can. If we did choose to build at Summerhill, the economic potential would be diminished as the things intercity travellers are trying to access are almost all further south. Not to mention any TOD would be quashed by the wealthy residents.

People are trying to go downtown, and doing otherwise would needlessly force the economic centre of Toronto North. It would make an uphill battle out of planning a second CBD at Summerhill, as an HFR station will have that amount of economic gravity. Considering the cost of rebuilding the Don Sub for access to downtown is likely pennies compared to more intensive capital works for HFR, I don’t see a reason why we should settle with the midtown lines’ existing alignment for intercity travel.

 

[afransen]

To use the subways (Line 2 or Line 4) or GO Midtown Train to get to their final destination.

If an HSR is built, it will have stops at Union and possibly Pearson. Anything else is madness.

 

[Sunnyside]

If an HSR is built, it will have stops at Union and possibly Pearson. Anything else is madness.

I think shoulder stations aren’t necessarily a bad idea. Only one or two are necessary. However, building one at Sheppard/Mccowan requires complete funding of Line 4 being extended to McCowan/the rail corridor. At that point it would be a pretty good location IMO. The only better area would be near the Science centre with Lines 3 & 5.

 

[afransen]

If you look at Alstom's concept, it seems to me they are suggesting at least partially tunneling the HSR approach to Union through the Don Valley.

Maybe it would be an opportunity for a new straightened high speed approach to downtown and a regional relief line, similar to what Seoul is doing with high speed regional subway (GTX) that shares alignment with their HSR network. Probably not so necessary between Union and Pearson, but could be useful for the eastern approach through downtown, and maybe an additional relief line for the Ontario Line in the distant future.

Great Train eXpress - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[micheal_can]

I don’t see why they would use Summerhill. While from an access standpoint your ability to get downtown isn’t that bad, in a hierarchy of services your intercity rail (HFR) should go to the absolute centre of the city if it can. If we did choose to build at Summerhill, the economic potential would be diminished as the things intercity travellers are trying to access are almost all further south. Not to mention any TOD would be quashed by the wealthy residents.

People are trying to go downtown, and doing otherwise would needlessly force the economic centre of Toronto North. It would make an uphill battle out of planning a second CBD at Summerhill, as an HFR station will have that amount of economic gravity. Considering the cost of rebuilding the Don Sub for access to downtown is likely pennies compared to more intensive capital works for HFR, I don’t see a reason why we should settle with the midtown lines’ existing alignment for intercity travel.

I am not seeing how the move north for the CBD would be bad. It is already inching its way north as there is no way to go further south. As far as the wealthy residents, they would only get richer as their land gets bought up for towers.

You mention the centre of the city. Do you mean geograpic or economic? Geographically, it is the centre.

If you look at Alstom's concept, it seems to me they are suggesting at least partially tunneling the HSR approach to Union through the Don Valley.

Maybe it would be an opportunity for a new straightened high speed approach to downtown and a regional relief line, similar to what Seoul is doing with high speed regional subway (GTX) that shares alignment with their HSR network. Probably not so necessary between Union and Pearson, but could be useful for the eastern approach through downtown, and maybe an additional relief line for the Ontario Line in the distant future.

Great Train eXpress - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Unless 4 tracks are put in, it would not serve as a relief.

 

[afransen]

Unless 4 tracks are put in, it would not serve as a relief.

Given that HSR frequencies are not going to be all that high, I think a few strategically placed passing tracks proximate to stations should be sufficient. Possibly using large bore tunnels to reduce the need for extensive mining for what are likely to be quite deep stations.

Advancing VTA's BART Phase II Tunnel and Trackwork

At the VTA Board of Directors meeting on May 5th, 2022, the VTA Board will vote on a contract for

www.vta.org

 

[micheal_can]

Given that HSR frequencies are not going to be all that high, I think a few strategically placed passing tracks proximate to stations should be sufficient. Possibly using large bore tunnels to reduce the need for extensive mining for what are likely to be quite deep stations.

Advancing VTA's BART Phase II Tunnel and Trackwork

At the VTA Board of Directors meeting on May 5th, 2022, the VTA Board will vote on a contract for

www.vta.org

If we want an expandable HSR that if frequent enough to compete with car and air travel, then we need 2 tracks.

If we want RER at15 minute or better frequency, then we need 2 tracks.

If we want both, we need 4 tracks. A tunnel is not where you can expand at a later date easily.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

If an HSR is built, it will have stops at Union and possibly Pearson. Anything else is madness.

I'd say Union and Pearson would be the minimum. A station in the East end wouldn't be out of line.

 

[Sunnyside]

I am not seeing how the move north for the CBD would be bad. It is already inching its way north as there is no way to go further south. As far as the wealthy residents, they would only get richer as their land gets bought up for towers.

You mention the centre of the city. Do you mean geograpic or economic? Geographically, it is the centre.


Unless 4 tracks are put in, it would not serve as a relief.

I meant economic. And yes, on paper it would be possible to build out around Summerhill, but imo it is a lot less desirable. Despite the case that it would make residents even more rich, we already know what happens when trying to encroach on these areas. Its a huge battle, and the development demand near an HFR station would be magnitudes larger than any GO or TTC station . And truthfully, TOD is secondary to the destination for intercity rail anyway. The strongest place to go is downtown, and Union can easily accommodate. Line 1 doesn’t end at Bloor, and VIA services Union instead of Summerhill today for similar reasons. We should only consider the latter if there’s some significant barrier to Union, which there is not.

Anywho, I don’t see why a tunnel is needed for the approach. Where would it go? There is an existing access point to downtown from the midtown corridor and it is a pretty easy route to improve if need be. With that said, I do think 4 tracks within Toronto is the way to go- we would absolutely want to bundle the midtown line for GO in with HFR if that is the route chosen. I think Caltrain is doing something similar with CAHSR.