GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[DirectionNorth]

okay thats a rabbit hole brings up so much more questions

The state DOT manages amtrak? i thought amtrak was federally managed?

Amtrak is owned by the federal government, but services that do not cross state borders (like the Pacific Surfliner and the Capitol Corridor) cannot be funded by the feds, the money MUST come from state governments. State services are overseen in California by a joint board of municipalities served by the route, and funding comes from CalTrans (the statewide transport department).

Caltrain (the SF commuter rail service) is operated by a joint board with members from San Francisco MUNI, San Jose VTA, and San Mateo's SamTrans.

On the subject of CAHSR, I don't think Amtrak will operate it. More likely, I think they will have the California HSR Authority (CHSRA) contract operations to SNCF or Deutsche Bahn or something. Don't take my word though, I'm uninformed.

 

[ssiguy2]

Hydrogen would be a mistake for GO RER although for longer distance GO commuter trains it could be very useful over the long-term but not yet.

In regard's to Reece's video, I hope this doesn't mean GO RER will be getting bi-levels. It would be a very poor choice but not unexpected.

 

[iYass]

Hydrogen would be a mistake for GO RER although for longer distance GO commuter trains it could be very useful over the long-term but not yet.

In regard's to Reece's video, I hope this doesn't mean GO RER will be getting bi-levels. It would be a very poor choice but not unexpected.

But for mass transit service, you should deploy double-deck trainset

 

[DirectionNorth]

But for mass transit service, you should deploy double-deck trainset

Elaborate please?

 

[ssiguy2]

Double decker is great for commuter trains where you have very high volumes and they drop 90% of their passenger on/off at one station ie Union.

For RER however, it's raison d'etre is to be a regional connector which means taking people from one region to another which automatically means vastly more shorter on/off passengers at dozens of different stations. This means that optimal passenger flow is essential and that is the biggest weakness of double decker trains. Also the disabled, elderly, parents with kids, and people with general mobility issues are far less likely to use trains at peak hours going to work so they need easily accessible transit.

Paris, NYC, and many other large cities have double decker RER trains but they are not comparable because unlike Toronto they have huge subway/Metro systems that non-commuters can use to get to their destinations. For Toronto, RER is essentially a subway-light system and hence the trains should be the same configuration.

One added bonus of having single level for RER and double decker for GO commuter is that they also make the trains far easier to differentiate in term of the service provided. Someone from Oakville will know that the single level train they get on at their station is one that can take them to Miminco and not find they can't get off until Union and vice-versa. This is very much like GO buses and Miss Transit where people taking a bus know which stations they will be able to get off/on at just by whether it's yellow or green.

When it comes to transit there is no such thing as a "one-size fits all" vehicle because there is not such thing as a "one-size fits all" rider.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Double decker is great for commuter trains where you have very high volumes and they drop 90% of their passenger on/off at one station ie Union.

For RER however, it's raison d'etre is to be a regional connector which means taking people from one region to another which automatically means vastly more shorter on/off passengers at dozens of different stations. This means that optimal passenger flow is essential and that is the biggest weakness of double decker trains. Also the disabled, elderly, parents with kids, and people with general mobility issues are far less likely to use trains at peak hours going to work so they need easily accessible transit.

Paris, NYC, and many other large cities have double decker RER trains but they are not comparable because unlike Toronto they have huge subway/Metro systems that non-commuters can use to get to their destinations. For Toronto, RER is essentially a subway-light system and hence the trains should be the same configuration.

One added bonus of having single level for RER and double decker for GO commuter is that they also make the trains far easier to differentiate in term of the service provided. Someone from Oakville will know that the single level train they get on at their station is one that can take them to Miminco and not find they can't get off until Union and vice-versa. This is very much like GO buses and Miss Transit where people taking a bus know which stations they will be able to get off/on at just by whether it's yellow or green.

When it comes to transit there is no such thing as a "one-size fits all" vehicle because there is not such thing as a "one-size fits all" rider.

So London, England should get rid of their double-decker buses, for the same reason?

From link.

 

[generalcanada]

So London, England should get rid of their double-decker buses, for the same reason?

From link.

umm he said go transit needs faster on/offboardings so single level trains.
then you say "but what about london busses" well tbh dwell times at stations dont matter pretty much at all for busses. unless they want like super fast like below 5 minute service

 

[north-of-anything]

I seriously doubt that RER trains in off-peak and counter-peak times will be crush loaded to the extent that short-distance trip takers will somehow be forced into the upper levels. If we had level boarding on 12 cars or even 6 cars instead of 1, there should be enough space for elderly customers, families with kids, and those with mobility concerns. In fact, from what I've seen, a significant amount of dwell time at stations is from operators needing to extend the ramp from the designated accessible car, then to pull it back again. People already start making their way towards the doors as soon as their stop is announced anyways.

 

[generalcanada]

I seriously doubt that RER trains in off-peak and counter-peak times will be crush loaded to the extent that short-distance trip takers will somehow be forced into the upper levels. If we had level boarding on 12 cars or even 6 cars instead of 1, there should be enough space for elderly customers, families with kids, and those with mobility concerns. In fact, from what I've seen, a significant amount of dwell time at stations is from operators needing to extend the ramp from the designated accessible car, then to pull it back again. People already start making their way towards the doors as soon as their stop is announced anyways.

getting kinda off-topic to electrification but heres my .02 on level boarding

most of that is true. but as someone who used to ride from whitby pre-covid. those lines for the doors were looong took a full minute to load up sometimes. and just as long to debark

Now basically to fix this you do a couple things.
1. level boarding so people can walk on faster
2. more doors
3. more frequent service.

level boarding is being done, but it only marginally helps, ya the bridge takes awhile for the wheelchairs but not as long as you think
more doors would be nice, but i doubt theyre getting a train with 3 doors per car.
2019 service had trips between 7-8am at 709express, 719express, 739express, 748 all stop, 756express.
most downtown workers who had to be in by 9 took 756, because 739 would be too early (823 vs 845)

The point is, the dwell times arent just instantly solved by level boarding, the doorway is only so wide. Dwell times are just IMO a matter of more frequent service, at least having more than 1 train every 10 minutes.

looking at the business case, i dont think they can actually do faster than that in peak service. 10 minute peak service?

Off-peak service other than events downtown i dont think ever got as high as peak ridership

 

[ssiguy2]

I seriously doubt that RER trains in off-peak and counter-peak times will be crush loaded to the extent that short-distance trip takers will somehow be forced into the upper levels. If we had level boarding on 12 cars or even 6 cars instead of 1, there should be enough space for elderly customers, families with kids, and those with mobility concerns. In fact, from what I've seen, a significant amount of dwell time at stations is from operators needing to extend the ramp from the designated accessible car, then to pull it back again. People already start making their way towards the doors as soon as their stop is announced anyways.

"Logically" you are quite right as in off-peak times of the day, the chances of the train being packed is quite low. Unfortunately, people don't act logically.

When people are in the subway for only a couple of stops, they often do not sit down even if there is a seat. Most just stand and usually right beside the door. This is even more so when there are double decker trains where going up/down a tiny number of stairs is a mental barrier. It makes absolutely no sense but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. This is one of the reasons why Paris and Sydney have had to order new train types of their RER/suburban systems with vastly wider doors and level boarding areas ....................even though there maybe tons of seats available, people tend to congregate around the doors.

 

[ssiguy2]

Anyway, back to the electrification............................

With Reece's video it looks like trains will be EMUs although single or double level is up for debate. This is great news because they won't be electric locomotives. To have elect loco would be a stupid idea but one I was afraid ML would employ because if you look at all the phots of their future electrified service they always show electric loco trains sets.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Anyway, back to the electrification............................

With Reece's video it looks like trains will be EMUs although single or double level is up for debate. This is great news because they won't be electric locomotives. To have elect loco would be a stupid idea but one I was afraid ML would employ because if you look at all the phots of their future electrified service they always show electric loco trains sets.

I wouldn't really give his video much cloat as we don't know what is actually going to be used. I think Metrolinx is leaning heavily towards sticking with the current fleet and just switching out the engines. From many videos I have seen its fairly common in Europe to run trains hauled by eltrtric locomotives.

 

[ARG1]

I wouldn't really give his video much cloat as we don't know what is actually going to be used. I think Metrolinx is leaning heavily towards sticking with the current fleet and just switching out the engines. From many videos I have seen its fairly common in Europe to run trains hauled by eltrtric locomotives.

Actually you're half correct. It is quite likely that they will order some electric locos in order to maintain the existing Bi-Level fleet. However, the chance that we don't get EMUs, or a fleet that primarily consists of EMUs is INCREDIBLY LOW, simply because other than coach reuse, there is no benefit. You have much slower acceleration which significantly decreases travel times, which is a problem when you're adding a ton of infill stations and are promising faster travel times throughout the region.

 

[ARG1]

Anyway, back to the electrification............................

With Reece's video it looks like trains will be EMUs although single or double level is up for debate. This is great news because they won't be electric locomotives. To have elect loco would be a stupid idea but one I was afraid ML would employ because if you look at all the phots of their future electrified service they always show electric loco trains sets.

As I've mentioned numerous times, Single Levels make no sense here. Until we get high floor boarding (which unfortunately won't be for a long time), there is practically no advantage to using Single level trains.

 

[crs1026]

As I've mentioned numerous times, Single Levels make no sense here. Until we get high floor boarding (which unfortunately won't be for a long time), there is practically no advantage to using Single level trains.

And that’s just fine. It will be some time before the longer dwell times associated with the current fleet make much of a difference to throughput and/or overall trip time. Eventually, headways will argue for faster boarding, but much of the bilevel fleet will reach end of life before then. Timing is everything.

- Paul