GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[reaperexpress]

The public should have saw something good with streetcars and demanded it everywhere then. Yet the lrts have had so much opposition. But that’s only one example.

The LRTs had so much opposition BECAUSE the existing streetcar service is terrible, and those LRTs were designed like bigger version of Toronto's median ROW streetcar lines instead of following international best pratices for light rail (basically a metro with level crossings, see Edmonton's Capital Line for example) or even tram services (see basically every major European city).

If the City had upgraded the legacy streetcar network to be fast and reliable, there probably would have been support to expand it.

 

[sixrings]

The LRTs had so much opposition BECAUSE the existing streetcar service is terrible, and those LRTs were designed like bigger version of Toronto's median ROW streetcar lines instead of following international best pratices for light rail (basically a metro with level crossings, see Edmonton's Capital Line for example) or even tram services (see basically every major European city).

If the City had upgraded the legacy streetcar network to be fast and reliable, there probably would have been support to expand it.

I thought street car suburbs were the rage and I never had any problem with row streetcars in Toronto.

Go is torontos version of calgarys c train. It just has a terminal versus going down the Main Street like in Calgary.

 

[reaperexpress]

I thought street car suburbs were the rage

Streetcar suburbs were the rage in the early 1900s before cars got popular and created traffic congestion on the streetcar lines.

and I never had any problem with row streetcars in Toronto.

According to the current TTC Service Summary, here are the average speeds of the three routes that operate entirely in their own dedicated ROW during the PM peak period:
509 Harbourfront: 11.6 km/h
510 Spadina: 9.2 km/h
512 St. Clair: 12.4 km/h.

That is slower than a local bus route should be, let alone a tram in a dedicated right of way. Spadina is especially aggregious since 9 km/h is slow enough that in most cases you could actually walk to your destination faster than taking the streetcar.

Go is torontos version of calgarys c train. It just has a terminal versus going down the Main Street like in Calgary.

No, those are two completely different things. The C-train is an urban/suburban rapid transit system that never leaves the built-up area. GO is a regional rail system that travels to other cities in Southern Ontario. Toronto's LRT lines were pitched as rapid transit, which is what the C-train is. The furthest the C-train gets from downtown is 17 km, while three of the GO lines are over 100 km long.

It takes 28 minutes to get 17 km from Calgary City Hall station to the southern terminus of Bridlewood, with 11 intermediate stops. That's an average speed of 36 km/h.
GO runs some services non-stop further than that, like the non-stop service from Union to Bramalea that takes 28 minutes to cover 25 km, which is an average speed of 53 km/h.

 

[ownthesky]

The LRTs had so much opposition BECAUSE the existing streetcar service is terrible, and those LRTs were designed like bigger version of Toronto's median ROW streetcar lines instead of following international best pratices for light rail (basically a metro with level crossings, see Edmonton's Capital Line for example) or even tram services (see basically every major European city).

If the City had upgraded the legacy streetcar network to be fast and reliable, there probably would have been support to expand it.

"International best practices for light rail" is an outrageously nebulous statement. Much of the modern urban tram networks in Europe look much more like the Edmonton Valley line, not the Capital Line... tram trains in Europe look like the Capital Line, because they use old rail lines in suburban/exurban areas, which is exactly how the Capital line was built. If we had a time machine I'm sure we could preserve some gravel tracts with rail sleepers through downtown Toronto to build a "international best practice" tram line, but we have a city on top of that now, so we're left with an urban tram model.

 

[Northern Light]

Streetcar suburbs were the rage in the early 1900s before cars got popular and created traffic congestion on the streetcar lines.

According to the current TTC Service Summary, here are the weekday average speeds of the three routes that operate entirely in their own dedicated ROW:
509 Harbourfront: 11.6 km/h (PM peak) to 16.0 km/h (evening)
510 Spadina: 9.2 km/h (PM peak) to 10.0 km/h (evening)
512 St. Clair: 12.4 km/h (AM/PM peak) to 14.0 km/h (evening).

That is slower than a local bus route should be, let alone a tram in a dedicated right of way. Spadina is especially egregious since 9 km/h is slow enough that in most cases you could actually walk to your destination faster than taking the streetcar.

100%

I think its important at this juncture (not aimed at you Reaper) but to everyone......to say this is a GO Transit thread.......and we should probably wind down this tangent.

That said, on the above........too many stops.......transit priority at traffic lights that is isn't that at all and isn't set up for far-side stations which are generally the norm on these routes; such that you get double-stops, first at a red light, then at a stop/station.

Very fixable.........but ....

 

[reaperexpress]

"International best practices for light rail" is an outrageously nebulous statement. Much of the modern urban tram networks in Europe look much more like the Edmonton Valley line, not the Capital Line... tram trains in Europe look like the Capital Line, because they use old rail lines in suburban/exurban areas, which is exactly how the Capital line was built. If we had a time machine I'm sure we could preserve some gravel tracts with rail sleepers through downtown Toronto to build a "international best practice" tram line, but we have a city on top of that now, so we're left with an urban tram model.

The Valley Line - which was opened in 2023 in an existing built-up area - takes 27 minutes to cover 12.8 km from Churchill to Mill Woods. That's an average speed of 28 km/h, which is more than double the average speed of the fastest Toronto streetcar line.

Thank you for further demonstrating my point that Toronto's streetcar lines fall far short of international best practice for any kind of light rail, whether that be urban trams, tram-trains, or stadtbahn.

 

[Thaboss]

The public should have saw something good with streetcars and demanded it everywhere then. Yet the lrts have had so much opposition. But that’s only one example.

Are you suggesting that all day 2way go transit will see limited support once completed on what is already the busiest regional rail in NA, outside of NYC?

It's already been addressed here so I won't go into it deeply, but toronto's streetcars in the DT core are terrible and perhaps prove the opposite point, where many ppl hate them for being too slow and are hardly supportive of how they're operated.

And yet, the gta is incredibly pro transit region in the anglosphere, has an pro transit mayor in its largest city, and a pro transit conservative premier. Now imagine if metrolinx delivered actually worldclass transit to a city that already uses its incredibly middling transit?

 

[sixrings]

Streetcar suburbs were the rage in the early 1900s before cars got popular and created traffic congestion on the streetcar lines.

According to the current TTC Service Summary, here are the average speeds of the three routes that operate entirely in their own dedicated ROW during the PM peak period:
509 Harbourfront: 11.6 km/h
510 Spadina: 9.2 km/h
512 St. Clair: 12.4 km/h.

That is slower than a local bus route should be, let alone a tram in a dedicated right of way. Spadina is especially aggregious since 9 km/h is slow enough that in most cases you could actually walk to your destination faster than taking the streetcar.


No, those are two completely different things. The C-train is an urban/suburban rapid transit system that never leaves the built-up area. GO is a regional rail system that travels to other cities in Southern Ontario. Toronto's LRT lines were pitched as rapid transit, which is what the C-train is. The furthest the C-train gets from downtown is 17 km, while three of the GO lines are over 100 km long.

It takes 28 minutes to get 17 km from Calgary City Hall station to the southern terminus of Bridlewood, with 11 intermediate stops. That's an average speed of 36 km/h.
GO runs some services non-stop further than that, like the non-stop service from Union to Bramalea that takes 28 minutes to cover 25 km, which is an average speed of 53 km/h.

Where exactly do you want to put these lrt lines. Go has taken up the corridors that is where these lines would be.

The only other way to get the speeds you’re suggesting is to be elevated.

 

[ownthesky]

Where exactly do you want to put these lrt lines. Go has taken up the corridors that is where these lines would be.

The only other way to get the speeds you’re suggesting is to be elevated.

I'll play Devil's Advocate (I also think reaper is being a little misleading as you allude to by citing C-train and ETS, both of which use old rail lines for very discrete right-of-ways that Toronto doesn't have) and say that the remedy to TTC's streetcar problems have been known about forever, Toronto just doesn't want to nut up and fix them: much wider stop spacing so trams can get up to speed, stronger signal priority, institutional pushback against train-delaying customer service decisions (slow door closing drama), and modern switches that don't require crawling through an intersection. Toronto should do this at the bare minimum before we start worrying more about grade separation.

If I was Olivia Chow, I would simply order the TTC to close half of King St's tram stops tomorrow. People will whine and complain about accessibility, as if a streetcar requiring you to dart across a lane of active traffic is some kind of wheelchair utopia, and the city will adapt. It's crazy that the city is desperately trying all kinds of schemes to speed up King St and ignoring the elephants in the room.

 

[Bojaxs]

I just came back from my second trip to London, U.K. and I have to say I'm really turning against noise walls.

I took a day trip to Bath via the GWR, and I didn't see a single noise wall along the entire ride. People's backyards and apartment patios were clearly visible, and backed right up against the tracks.

The trains used by GWR may be electric, but I can assure you they are anything but quiet when they fly by you at 200km/h. They give off a loud, "rushing" sound like any fast train would.

The lack of noise wall made for a very nice riding experience where I got to see everything out the window. As you guys can imagine, when I landed back in Toronto earlier today and rode the UP Express to Union, it was a much different experience. The noise walls seem to do nothing more than invite taggers. Do these walls actually stop or reduce the noise? The noise walls make for an awful riding experience where you look out the window and see nothing but blatant, rampant vandalism.

Most of the British rail network appears to be entirely grade separated. On my trip to Bath from London, not only did I not see any noise walls, but we didn't go over a single "at-grade" crossing. I don't recall seeing any fences running alongside the tracks. Atleast not outside the cities.

I'm just wondering if Metrolinx should just stop constructing noise walls and replace them with fences instead?

 

[Northern Light]

The lack of noise wall made for a very nice riding experience where I got to see everything out the window. As you guys can imagine, when I landed back in Toronto earlier today and rode the UP Express to Union, it was a much different experience. The noise walls seem to do nothing more than invite taggers. Do these walls actually stop or reduce the noise?

Yes, but......they stop it in different ways, and with differing degrees of success, depending on their design/materials. In general, the two ways in which they work are 'absorption' and 'deflection'.

They are typically most effective at the height to which they are built. Meaning they are less effective for buildings w/floors above the height of the noise wall. The typical noise reduction impact is 5 to 10 decibels

There's an excellent paper on this very subject that's very readable to the lay persons:

https://bibliotekanauki.pl/articles/134873.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiir92M7smNAxU-w_ACHZqeIJoQjJEMegQIHxAB&usg=AOvVaw0ETC5hSRcHR86SU-tvF1w4

The noise walls make for an awful riding experience where you look out the window and see nothing but blatant, rampant vandalism.

I agree.

I'm just wondering if Metrolinx should just stop constructing noise walls and replace them with fences instead?

The corridors generally are fenced (in Toronto) where noise walls are not present.

The fences are subject to frequent vandalism as people seek to cross the ROW and it doesn't take a lot of skill or fancy tools to cut chain link.

If you ignore the noise issue, and think strictly of security a non-scalable, difficulty to cut fence would likely make the most sense. Think faux Cast-Iron, Probably 10ft tall.

 

[nfitz]

The fences are subject to frequent vandalism as people seek to cross the ROW and it doesn't take a lot of skill or fancy tools to cut chain link.

Well that, and that Metrolinx (and it's predecessors) can go decades without attempting to maintain/fix the fencing.

Personally, I think the noise walls are pathetically ugly - and Metrolinx extreme and blatant lies that they'd be available to remove grafitti was despicable.

 

[crs1026]

I have been tempted to sneak past the anti trespass mat and surrepetitiously plant some ivy shoots.
The beauty of British Rail fencing, other than being a stockpile of metal that could provide for decades of steelmaking, is that most is covered with a century of vegetation.
Surely ML could do more planting to accelerate coverings on all those walls.

- Paul

 

[Sauga89]

I have been tempted to sneak past the anti trespass mat and surrepetitiously plant some ivy shoots.
The beauty of British Rail fencing, other than being a stockpile of metal that could provide for decades of steelmaking, is that most is covered with a century of vegetation.
Surely ML could do more planting to accelerate coverings on all those walls.

- Paul

Isn't ivy an invasive species? I imagine that would be an issue for Metrolinx. I'm not a horticulturalist though, so maybe there are native ivy-like species which could substitute for ivy.

 

[nfitz]

Isn't ivy an invasive species? I imagine that would be an issue for Metrolinx. I'm not a horticulturalist though, so maybe there are native ivy-like species which could substitute for ivy.

Well English Ivy is invasive. There's certainly North American species, such as Virginia creeper. I'm not sure which ones are native to Ontario - and it's increasingly Carolinean forests.