GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[north-of-anything]

I have gone through this business case but it doesn't talk about new lines. It's more about expansion of existing lines.

What I am interested in is potentially how many new GO lines can we have (even if 100 years later) using the current rail track infrastructure or ROW in case we ever need to.

Pretty much every line that can be used is already in use. The other rail lines we have are mostly ones that are already used for freight, like the lines that lead to Bolton and Orangeville. Peterborough would be better served with VIA, as most of the land in between there and Toronto is agricultural or otherwise protected.

The only potential I can see for expansion would be the Missing Link along the 407 right of way, but that would be to shift freight traffic off of the Milton Line, and that project is controversial because it would require CP and CN to share or something.

 

[Allandale25]

^ The Missing Link would have also shifted freight off of the Kitchener Line better Bramalea and Georgetown.

 

[north-of-anything]

^ The Missing Link would have also shifted freight off of the Kitchener Line better Bramalea and Georgetown.

Oh, right, forgot about that. There's really no potential for any new GO lines, just better utilizing the GO lines we already have, and improving local connections to those lines.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Just to add to this topic, there's a study for use of the line between Cambridge and Guelph to connect to the Kitchener Line. I can't remember if the study is done or not. cc @alexanderglista

 

[Haydenpoon]

^ Just to add to this topic, there's a study for use of the line between Cambridge and Guelph to connect to the Kitchener Line. I can't remember if the study is done or not. cc @alexanderglista

I think they finished stage 1. See link

 

[robmausser]

Oh, right, forgot about that. There's really no potential for any new GO lines, just better utilizing the GO lines we already have, and improving local connections to those lines.

I disagree with this, to a degree.

If the full missing link was utilized, including moving CP, the Midtown Line would be a good investment in my opinion, as well as a line from Bolton utilizing the Midtown. The portion of the CP bolton corridor would be fully available to Steeles, and then you could do peak service to Bolton in negotiation with CP.

However it would terminate at Markham before the CP yard, not continue to Peterborough.

Using DMU service to Orangeville also is a potential in the future, not now due to population.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

So getting away from the conversation about what's likely the full list of potential lines really is:

• CP Crosstown core section to Markham/McCowan
  • makes a lot of sense once, and it is if, not when, the missing link is in place
  • seems more amenable to a DMU than conventional GO service
• CP Havelock sub from CP yard to, wherever you want to stop honestly, but as far as Peterborouugh
  • probably the easiest to implement on this list since this is also what VIA HFR would use
  • this is one of two eastern options that work for a crosstown service, DMU again IMO
• CP Belleville sub through northern Durham
  • has some nice potential, but there's no serious possibility of getting freight of this route; it probably needs a level of infrastructure similar to what would get us full service on the Milton line without the missing link
  • the other crosstown branch
• CP Mactier to Bolton
  • in the running with Cambridge for most likely, but has the same issues as the Belleville Sub
  • the only thing on this list that looks pretty much exactly like just another GO train route
• Fergus sub, Guelph to Cambridge (I think CN took this back from GEXR?)
  • pretty likely to happen imo; it makes a lot of sense, doesn't require a huge amount of work and does seem to be where Metrolinx is headed with their Cambridge study
  • I tend toward thinking this should be a high frequency DMU that is branded as something more akin to ION than GO, but running this as a branch of the Kitchener train is definitely feasible
• Orangeville Brampton Railway
  • I don't like this one much, but it is possible; ridership potential is meh, it needs serious work to get decent speeds, there's not much development potential along the route and at the same time, Hwy 10/Hurontario north of Brampton can be made into a very good bus corridor
  • service pattern is an interesting discussion on this if it did happen; I'd be somewhat inclined to picture it as an extension of a crosstown corridor DMU
• Milton extension to Cambridge
  • I wish this were doable, and it's not impossible, but Guelph is better in every way and while both would be nice demand probably isn't there
  • bear in mind that west of Milton even the missing link doesn't get freight off this corridor
• CN's northern corridor and missing link
  • looks nice as a line on a map, but aside from capacity issues a 407 BRT system really works better for this general corridor; going off corridor is a HUGE deal given what's actually near the highway and railway vs what's a short deviation away
  • also, considering real world constraints, there is a LOT more to be gained by building the missing link and getting CP onto this corridor as well than by adding passengers to it

Am I missing anything?

I guess I did miss one - I don't think it's inconceivable we'd see calls for GO operation west of Hamilton toward Brantford and London at some stage... Personally I hope we can eventually rebuild the Cambridge - Paris portion of the LE&N and run a Guelph - Cambridge - Paris - Brantford - Hamilton service but wholly new corridors aren't what the original question was.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Another option is the Uxbridge extension of the Stouffville line, though that’s hardly a priority. It’s “easy” though since GO owns the corridor right now, though it would have to be completely rebuilt.

I agree we may see Brantford GO service at some point. I think London’s a bit far for commuter service though. Brantford could be serviceable in about 1.5hours, while London would be closer to 2.5, which isn’t really a commuter service any more.

We need a GO bus route between Kitchener and Hamilton before a train. One thing at a time.

 

[Northern Light]

Another option is the Uxbridge extension of the Stouffville line, though that’s hardly a priority. It’s “easy” though since GO owns the corridor right now, though it would have to be completely rebuilt.

I agree we may see Brantford GO service at some point. I think London’s a bit far for commuter service though. Brantford could be serviceable in about 1.5hours, while London would be closer to 2.5, which isn’t really a commuter service any more.

We need a GO bus route between Kitchener and Hamilton before a train. One thing at a time.

London and other more distant places may not make sense at Toronto-bound commuting; but make make sense for an intermediate hub.

ie. London commute to K-W.

or

Brantford to Hamilton

or

London to Hamilton (but not Toronto).


While we can't fail to concede that Toronto remains the centrepoint of many of these types of services, it need not be the only one.

I would like to see GO/transport hubs for hub and spoke in London, K-W, Hamilton, Barrie, and Ottawa among other places.

I think if we though of Gravenhurst to Barrie or Midland to Barrie as the key commute as opposed to such a place to Toronto there is a different market to serve.

Now, Midland-Barrie does not justify a GO Train, nor is it likely to in the near future; but it may justify a bus.

Or a line might make sense that connects to Blue Mountain/Wasaga which might incidentally serve other points. (again not near future, so many higher priorities).

Just suggesting a broader vision of the future of GO.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Oh duh. I also failed to mention a Barrie line extension to Collingwood.

Despite having worked on the damn study of the thing

It's essentially abandoned past Utopia now, but the ROW is basically in place, and it always did need a close to full rebuild to happen.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Oh duh. I also failed to mention a Barrie line extension to Collingwood.

Despite having worked on the damn study of the thing

It's essentially abandoned past Utopia now, but the ROW is basically in place, and it always did need a close to full rebuild to happen.

Interestingly, the rails are actually still in place for the majority of the route, but are severely overgrown. A full rebuild would be needed. With the Barrie Line being all electrified, I would assume that a flyover over the CP mainline at Utopia would be needed. I think that an extension to Collingwood would be much much more successful than most people would suspect. Also, the route is pretty darn straight. There’s a UT forum for it here.

 

[north-of-anything]

I would like to see GO/transport hubs for hub and spoke in London, K-W, Hamilton, Barrie, and Ottawa among other places.

I think if we though of Gravenhurst to Barrie or Midland to Barrie as the key commute as opposed to such a place to Toronto there is a different market to serve.

Now, Midland-Barrie does not justify a GO Train, nor is it likely to in the near future; but it may justify a bus.

Or a line might make sense that connects to Blue Mountain/Wasaga which might incidentally serve other points. (again not near future, so many higher priorities).

Just suggesting a broader vision of the future of GO.

Simcoe's LINX bus service is already making a hub-and spoke system around Barrie, with buses every 50 minutes to Orillia, and every hour to Midland, Penetanguishene, and Wasaga Beach. I think they also run a service between Barrie and Angus, but I'm not sure. Simcoe's own transit agency should be able to control what other routes are run within the county, and leave GO to manage the train line and the Highway 11 corridor between Barrie and Bradford.

Other than extending the Barrie Line to Collingwood, or a future Bolton line to Alliston/Tottenham/Beeton, there's not much in the way of new services that make sense for GO to cover.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

One thing that's been in the back of my head since looking at Collingwood is rebuilding to Meaford and a new line west to Owen Sound. Seems a lot more useful than any attempt to extend passenger service north of Orangeville.

 

[Richard White]

Simcoe's LINX bus service is already making a hub-and spoke system around Barrie, with buses every 50 minutes to Orillia, and every hour to Midland, Penetanguishene, and Wasaga Beach. I think they also run a service between Barrie and Angus, but I'm not sure. Simcoe's own transit agency should be able to control what other routes are run within the county, and leave GO to manage the train line and the Highway 11 corridor between Barrie and Bradford.

Other than extending the Barrie Line to Collingwood, or a future Bolton line to Alliston/Tottenham/Beeton, there's not much in the way of new services that make sense for GO to cover.

I always said that if GO transit needs regional hubs. Think of what they could do if they had a commuter service in Northern Ontario.

 

[kali]

Simcoe's LINX bus service is already making a hub-and spoke system around Barrie, with buses every 50 minutes to Orillia, and every hour to Midland, Penetanguishene, and Wasaga Beach. I think they also run a service between Barrie and Angus, but I'm not sure.

iirc they also serve CFB Borden.