Globe: Second NHL Team for Toronto?

[paledin]

80 kilometer rule not reasonable in GTA

The 80 kilometer rule in Toronto is pretty cruel. This is a really condensed hockey market and for one franchise to monopolize it is a shame. The Leafs do not have to perform for fans. They have a huge audience every night they play here. At the same time, a real tragedy is taking place. Very few children have the money to go to see a game. It's too expensive. The corporate fan base is fine but another hockey club in town would make the price of admission more reasonable and most of all would allow kids to see major league hockey live and up close. Bettman probably has to cow tow to the Leafs because they have so much money. But the league is missing the point by sticking to the 80 km rule. Instead, the rule should be based on what a particular market can handle. The current Leafs management will not like that arrangement but they have an interest that does not include Toronto/Hamilton fans. It also does not include the interest of the NHL. And as much as people can argue that the Leafs have tried to perform better as indicated by their spending, I can promise you that if they had to compete for fans in town, their performance really would change. Their intown monopoly does hold them back.

 

[Jarrek]

It's pretty much retarded that the largest city in Canada has only one major league hockey team. This is our national sport.

If London England can support 6 premier league soccer teams, I'm quite sure we can support one more hockey team.

Ludicrous.

 

[junctionist]

I also take issue with MLSE for stipulating that Maple Leaf Gardens can no longer be a hockey arena. Ryerson could have settled in by now, and we wouldn't have to fear that it will collapse one day. There have suggestions for reuse, but the university could do it now.

 

[wyliepoon]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081020.shoalts21/BNStory/National/home


A second NHL team in Toronto?


October 21, 2008 at 12:18 AM EDT

TORONTO — NHL governors are talking informally about placing a second hockey team in Toronto alongside the Maple Leafs, The Globe and Mail has learned.

“Why shouldn't we put another team in the best and biggest market in the world?†one of several NHL governors who spoke with The Globe anonymously said of the Greater Toronto Area.

According to this governor, one idea floated is for prospective owner Jim Balsillie to be rewarded with an expansion team in Toronto after helping to restore financial ballast to the Nashville Predators.

“I've heard this exact scenario,†a second governor said.

Calgary Flames co-owner Harley Hotchkiss, a former chairman of the NHL board of governors, is also aware of the Balsillie movement.

“I've heard bits and pieces of this scenario, although not in that kind of detail,†he said. “Our priority is to have the existing franchises solid.â€

“[It is] an interesting scenario,†Mr. Hotchkiss added, “ but I can only speak generally.â€

Richard Peddie, president of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, said the organization would not automatically reject the idea of a second team in Toronto.

“When and if the league brings expansion to the table, we'll listen and decide what is best [for hockey],†he said.

As to the potential impact on the Maple Leafs, the first governor dismissively waved his hand. “The Maple Leafs would not be hurt one bit. In fact, it would help them. They could make all kinds of money renting the Air Canada Centre to the other team.â€

Richard Rodier, a Toronto lawyer who acts as spokesman for Mr. Balsillie on hockey matters, declined to comment. Bill Daly, the deputy commissioner of the NHL, did not respond to a request for comment.

Two more NHL governors said the league should put a second team in Toronto, although one of them said it should be by relocating an existing franchise rather than expanding.

“I don't think it can be an expansion team,†a governor said. “We can't expand because we would be the laughingstock of professional sports.

“We've got too many troubled franchises. We've got to look at relocating a couple of them. These franchises were troubled long before the economic downturn and next year is going to be worse on them.â€

Mr. Balsillie, the co-CEO of Research in Motion Ltd., angered league executives by attempting to buy the Nashville Predators with the intent of moving the franchise to Hamilton.

The league will never allow Mr. Balsillie to put a team in Hamilton for two reasons, according to one governor. One is that the city would be a tough sell for U.S.-based teams, and the other, more significant reason, is the belief it would ruin the Buffalo Sabres.

“It's a minor-league town,†the governor said of Hamilton. “How could we sell a team from Hamilton? Do you think the New York Rangers want to put the Hamilton Steelers on their marquee at Madison Square Garden? Do you think anyone in Manhattan would buy tickets to see them?â€

He also said a team in Hamilton would mean thousands of fans in the Niagara Peninsula who attend Sabres games would simply drive to Hamilton to avoid border lineups.

“We do not want to kill the Sabres,†the governor said. “But if there was a second team in Toronto, that would not hurt Buffalo.â€

A comparable situation exists in Los Angeles, where the Staples Center houses three professional teams – the Kings of the NHL, plus the Lakers and Clippers of the NBA.

A third governor thinks the Buffalo Sabres might accept a second team in Southern Ontario as well if it made business sense. He said that means charging Mr. Balsillie as much as $700-million (U.S.) for an expansion franchise.

*****

The Toronto Star is challenging the report, but it's always nice to think what would happen if the GTA was awarded a second NHL team. Many people say that since the NYC metro area has three NHL teams, and the LA metro area two, hockey-mad Toronto certainly can handle two teams.

There's much speculation that the second team might end up in Hamilton or Kitchener-Waterloo (if Jim Balsillie gets his way). One location I'd personally love to see an NHL team (though not likely) is Mississauga City Centre. It would benefit MCC by bringing people to the area, and who doesn't like a good Toronto-Mississauga rivalry?

 

[wonderboy416]

Chicago has two baseball teams.
New York / New Jersey has countless NHL, MLB, NFL and NBA teams.
LA has multiple baseball, basketball and hockey teams.

Why can't Toronto, the world's hottest market support two hockey teams? Maybe we could get a franchise that's committed to winning for a change?
Yeah the Leafs (and the Sabres if it's on the west-end) will use every legal tactic they can to prevent this... but it would be nice to see the best thing happen for this hockey market, competition!

Another team would lead to more affordable ticket prices, which means a middle-income family could actually afford to take their kids to a real NHL game.. what a treat! The economics would more than support two teams. The Leafs will always be the Leafs and if a new team came in it wouldn't be as special if they won the cup that's for sure but... if cities like Phoenix and Nashville can have NHL teams, then Toronto should have 2, maybe even 3

 

[cruzin4u]

Seems far fetched. It would be great, but with Bettman running the league, it's not going to happen.

I would rather see a team in Hamilton or somewhere else in Canada. It would be nice to see Winnipeg with a team again, Quebec City with a team, even bringing back the Hartford Whalers.

MLSE is a powerful organization and I could see them putting up a battle to stop this from happening. Maple Leafs are Toronto's team, even if they do suck. I wouldn't want another team in Toronto personally.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

toronto islanders?

 

[adma]

Charlestown Chiefs?

 

[Jayomatic]

Kitchener Crackberrys?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Let's build an arena at James Snow Parkway and call the team The Milton Sprawl.

 

[ShonTron]

Forget James Snow. Why not take over the left-to-waste Ontario Agricultural Museum (it means a new interchange at Tremaine Road!) and call it, literally, the Farm Team.

It will have to be outside the market reach (I think it was 80 km), and we had this discussion before. It would mean a team on the far side of K-W to be free of Toronto and Buffalo (even 401 and Townline Road wouldn't be outside the 80km restriction if it's measured as the crow flies). If Basillie didn't mind paying the penalty to one team (Toronto), that puts a number of sites into play, including downtown Hamilton, but barely (Copps is outside Buffalo's reach). I couldn't see MLSE fighting as hard if it was a Hamilton or Kitchener based team than if it were in Toronto or the inner 905.

The quote about Madison Square Garden not selling out if it were a team from Hamilton playing is nonsense. Nashville or Edmonton don't have big names either. Then there's NFL Green Bay or MLB Tampa or Anaheim. I wouldn't want to see any NHL expansion, it should be a move. The NHL is too big and watered down as it is thanks to Buttman - it really should be a 26-team league.

 

[jn_12]

Well the Globe article is right. Informally the board of governers have discussed this. The Star jumped to the conclusion that these were formal talks, which they aren't.

From what I have read about the issue:
Balsille wants a team but there's nothing to suggest he would pay $700million for one. It's hard to understand where this number comes from. Considering most teams that have been sold lately have been roughly valued at $200million. Why would Balsillie pay 500million more? Well that money would presumably go to Toronto to make up an indemnity. However, Balsillie would never pay that because he knows that there is no legal precedent for it. In the past when the NHL has placed a team in another team's territory, they've simply used some of the expansion fee to pay off the original team. The reason Balsillie has been turned down in all of his attempts to get a team so far is because he knows that there is no legal argument for forcing a team to pay indemnity. Bettman and the NHL don't want this to go to court cause it could set a precedent that they don't want. So if Balsillie managed to buy a team (which WILL happen eventually, especially amidst rumours that one team in the US is close to not being able to pay player wages already)Balsillie will take the NHL to court and he would win and a team would end up in Hamilton and play at Copps, even though Hamilton is in Toronto and Buffalo territory.

Now here's the crazy thing. Apparently, the interest in bringing a 2nd team to the GTA isn't Balsillie. Balsillie's interests lie in Hamilton. There's a second group(who has not been named publicly) that wants to put a team just north of Toronto and have apparently already bought land in one of the suburbs north of the city to build an arena (Vaughn, Markham, etc). So, what could happen is within 5 years from now we could have not just the Leafs but a North Toronto team and Hamilton. that's THREE!!! teams in the golden horseshoe. This is real.

Fact is that the region can easily support a second team and could probably support a third, especially if Balsillie and RIM are involved in one of them. New York has 3 NHL teams and LA has 2 and neither of those are comparable to Southern Ontario in terms of passion for the sport. We have a substantial middle class that can afford tickets if they're available and the corporate support that is necessary. There's a 10 year waiting list for season tickets for the Leafs. Would some of those jump on the new team's bandwagon? Probably.

As for Bettman, there's a growing sense that owner's are getting fed up with teams not being successes in these southern markets. Phoenix last season only made $12million from ticket sales. That's comparable to what Canadian teams makes in 5-8 games. The rich in the NHL are giving money to the poor teams and it's becoming harder and harder for Bettman to tell the owners that a floundering Phoenix or Atlanta makes more sense than a team in southern Ontario. This season won't be as bad for teams, but next year could be a disaster as corporate support opt not to renew their luxury boxes. Considering 8 different owners this summer contacted Balsillie about whether he'd be interested in bailing them out, there are some teams in a lot of trouble in the US.

 

[jn_12]

Stephen Brunt of the Globe sums things up perfectly as per usual...

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081021.wspt_brunt22/GSStory/GlobeSportsHockey/home

 

[AgentOrange]

toronto islanders?

Isles fan here....

Very little chance the Isles move because of their very rich current cable contract.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E4DB1738F932A25755C0A96F958260

But no matter how high the miseries pile up in Uniondale, the team has one last, rich and loyal pal: its cable TV deal with Fox Sports New York, the happy residue of a landmark deal made by the former owner John Pickett in 1982.

There is little doubt that the franchise would wither without the tens of millions guaranteed by Cablevision-owned FSNY. It is one of the largest local television contracts in major league sports. The cable contract was so valuable that it cost more than the team itself -- $100 million for the contract and $95 million for the team -- when Howard and Edward Milstein and Steven Gluckstern became the owners for $195 million last year.

Yet the certainty of receiving FSNY's cash was imperiled three years ago. At the time, Cablevision inserted a clause into the first draft of a renegotiated contract that would have let it declare the deal breached if the Islanders' record and player investment did not add up to an ''entertaining product.''

The team's performance provided no leverage for the Islanders to resist the demand. But it owned another form of leverage that caused the provision to disappear from the final version of the contract. The talks occurred as Cablevision merged FSNY (then SportsChannel) into the MSG Network. An option for Islander payments to shift from a flat fee to 18 1/2 percent of FSNY revenues was coming in 2001.

Cablevision recoiled at the possibility of paying the Islanders 18 1/2 percent of total FSNY-MSG revenues. In the talks, the team got an extension through the 2030-31 season, which features yearly payments rising from $14.8 million next season and $17.5 million in 2000-1 to $36 million in the final year, and the possibility of lousy performances causing a breach disappeared from the final contract.

Also Wang is in very deep in trying to get his Lighthouse project approved which will eventually.

Very little chance the Isles move to Toronto, although as an Isles fan it might be someone nice to have my favourite team located in or near the city I live in and since I hate the Leafs with such passion already, it would be more enjoyable.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

orange: my reply had nothing to do with the NY islanders team. i was talking about the toronto islands. NY has two teams and one is called the islanders and since toronto has islands, i thought it'd be a funny parallel.