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Globe: Second NHL Team for Toronto?

can't they just sell it to "another" corporation and be free of that agreement? or do new owners have to inherit that clause?

No.

These types of contracts almost always include a clause stating that any sale must include the same terms. If they sold it without that clause then the seller would be in breach of contract and could be sued for damages. It is also possible the sale would be thrown out by a judge as the sale might not be legal -- they would be selling rights they did not have in the first place.

Selling mineral or logging rights on a property you do not have rights on is more or less the same as this.


Second to that, these restrictions may be registered on title which means they follow the property, not the owner. This is the same way that easements for utilities, roadway, services, etc. are preserved across sales of a property.

If you sell your neighbour access to a certain part of land (say a walkway through your property to the lake) you cannot make it disappear without them agreeing to it.
 
Before he moved them to Mississauga, Eugene Melnyk tried to by the Gardens to house the Majors (OHL)....he was going to downsize it to OHL standards/size...the reports at the time were that MLSE would not sell to him as he would not agree to a clause that forbade the hosting of other entertainment events.
 
I was just going to make that point. MLSE was afraid that joe six-packs paying $15.00 for prime seats was somehow going to take away from their ability to make money on the Leafs at the ACC. How one financially has anything to do with the other is beyond me
 
I was just going to make that point. MLSE was afraid that joe six-packs paying $15.00 for prime seats was somehow going to take away from their ability to make money on the Leafs at the ACC. How one financially has anything to do with the other is beyond me

I think they were fine with him buying the rink and using it for OHL games.....but he would not agree to a non-compete situation for events like concerts, circuses and the like....that is what they were afraid of.
 
Which is ridiculous early on as a downsized MLG (built to minor league capacity) would have filled a niche between small private venues and Massey Hall for smaller acts and intimate performances (like what Lightfoot or jazz musicans prefer) and megavenues like ACC for A-list rock bands and shows.

Though after they put the no-compete clause, they did take over the Rioch Centre and move the Baby Leafs out of St. John's - bingo, they had that midsized arena with a minor team that would have competed for a similar market as St. Mike's Majors. I tells ya, they're about real estate first and foremost. Like that corporate McDonald's mentality - they're not a food company, they're a real estate company (McD owns the land franchisees occupy), a mentality even Kroc frowned upon
 
Globe

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081110.2inToronto10/GSStory/GlobeSportsHockey/home


Big dollars for second T.O. team

DAVID SHOALTS

From Monday's Globe and Mail

November 10, 2008 at 1:32 AM EST

The value of a second NHL team in Toronto would range between $400-million and $600-million, and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment would be entitled to a one-time territorial payment of up to $250-million for allowing the relocation of an existing team, according to sports economists.

The second team in Toronto would instantly become the third most valuable franchise in the league behind the Maple Leafs and New York Rangers and on par with the Detroit Red Wings and Montreal Canadiens, sports finance expert Marc Ganis said.

Ganis, the president of SportsCorp Ltd. of Chicago and a consultant to professional sports clubs and leagues, said the size and strength of the Greater Toronto Area market would drive the new franchise's value. The payment to MLSE would range between $90-million and $250-million (all currency U.S.), depending on factors such as arena rental, sponsorship, broadcast rights and advertising.

“There is no better [hockey] market anywhere than the one for a second team in Toronto,†Ganis said. “The reason is the strength of the Toronto market for hockey.â€

Brad Humphreys, a University of Alberta professor who teaches sports economics, said many variables would be considered to calculate the rights fee, particularly whether the team would become a tenant at the MLSE-owned Air Canada Centre. The rights fee would be lower if the team rented the Air Canada Centre and significantly higher if the club operated another arena in the GTA area.

Likewise, Ganis said, the team's estimated value would be closer to the bottom range if it rented the Air Canada Centre rather than owning its own arena in, say, North York.

“It's tricky because it involves not just current costs but perpetual costs,†Humphreys said. “Who knows? What if 10 years from now the new franchise has won a couple of Stanley Cups and the Leafs have not?â€

However, Humphreys believes “$200-million would not be an unreasonable figure†as an estimated rights fee to be paid to the Leafs.

Some NHL governors have informally discussed the notion of placing a second team in the GTA rather than in Hamilton or another Southern Ontario market.

But getting another franchise into Toronto could be difficult – to the point of a prospective owner having to resort to litigation. In that scenario, two legal experts say, there's a good chance the league would be forced into submission.

EXPAND OR RELOCATE

There would be two ways of landing a second team in Toronto. One would be through expansion, which would be easier as it would involve implicit support from the league and MLSE. It's also the more unlikely option, as NHL commissioner Gary Bettman has repeatedly indicated North American expansion isn't on the agenda. Bettman's strategy instead is to continue supporting dubious warm-climate hockey markets such as Nashville, Atlanta, Florida and Phoenix.

The other method is to relocate an existing team and be prepared to fight the NHL for the right to move it.

The incumbent owner would ask the NHL for approval to move the team to another city. If the franchise was being sold to a new owner, the league would first conduct due diligence before approving the sale. (The NHL has an uneven record in this area, given the current bankruptcy proceedings involving Nashville Predators minority owner William (Boots) Del Biaggio.)

Assuming the new owner was deemed worthy, the governors could approve both the sale and the move. However, if the governors approved the sale and refused the move, or refused the sale because it involved a move to Toronto, the dispute could go to court.

Two experts in antitrust law both say there would be at least one and possibly two legal avenues for an owner to pursue.

Anita Anand, the associate dean of the University of Toronto's Faculty of Law, said that if the NHL tried to prevent a move, the prospective owner could take the league to court under Section 79 of the Canadian Competition Act.

COMPETITON IN THE COURTS

Theoretically, the NHL could not use its “dominant position†in the professional hockey market to prevent competition with an existing company, in this case the Maple Leafs. Anand said a lawsuit could be filed on those grounds even though the Competition Bureau, which acts as an enforcement arm for the federal government in antitrust matters, ruled last March that the NHL does not engage in monopolistic behaviour.

The bureau stated that its decision could not be used as the basis for a future case. Therefore, Anand said, “it is possible for the dominant position argument to be successful in a new context.â€

The Competition Act states that when “one or more persons substantially control . . . a class or species of business,†it is not permissible for those persons to “have the effect of preventing or lessening competition substantially in a market.â€

Another expert who works in antitrust law for a major downtown Toronto firm said the prospective owner could pursue legal action under the section of the Competition Act that deals with restraint of trade. The lawyer, who did not want to be identified because his firm has had dealings with parties involved with the NHL, said a restraint-of-trade complaint could even involve criminal charges.

“You can look at it as if there is an agreement to restrict trade severely,†the lawyer said. “Then, with a league, maybe that agreement lessens competition unduly. That could get you into the criminal provision of the act.â€

BEEN THERE, DONE THAT

The bureau investigated a complaint last year that alleged the league's constitution allowed any of the NHL's 30 teams to veto the move of another team into an 80-kilometre radius of its home arena.

The bureau's decision dealt with Jim Balsillie's attempt to buy the Nashville Predators and move the franchise to Hamilton. The NHL blocked the purchase.

In its decision, the Competition Bureau said it “found no instance where a ‘veto' was exercised by an incumbent club to protect its local territory from entry by a competing franchise.â€

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly affirmed in e-mail to The Globe and Mail that the constitution does not guarantee a veto. “Any [franchise] relocation into Southern Ontario would only require a majority vote of the Board of Governors,†he said.

Since the Competition Bureau has already been satisfied no veto exists, Anand said, “it may be difficult for an argument about restraint of trade to succeed.â€

However, if someone wanted to move a team into Toronto, this would provide the “new context†Anand mentioned, and a different decision would be possible.

What could not be disputed, the experts agreed, is the payment of a territorial rights fee. The NHL and other sports leagues have charged the fees in the past. Most recently in the NHL, former Los Angeles Kings owner Bruce McNall received $25-million in 1993 when the league awarded the Walt Disney Co. an expansion franchise in Anaheim.
 
Shoalts seems to be a bit too obsessed with this. I think he smells a chance at a book somewhere down the road. But with this article I don't think he's shed any new light on the situation. He just got a bunch of academic perspectives (even if they might be wrong in some of the details). Balsillie isn't worried about compensating the leafs with a large wad of cash. He knows he can fight that in the courts and win. So I'm not sure where the economists get the idea that he absolutely must compensate the Leafs.
 
Any team in southern Ontario (GTA or otherwise) would be on solid ground financially, so there wouldn't be any worries about the local fans not supporting the franchise. The fan base is so large that two Toronto teams wouldn't lead to any meaningful competition. That would mean that the new franchise would charge pretty much the same amount for tickets/boxes/merchandise/ect... no business would charge less when there are more than enough fans for two (or more) teams and those local fans have already shown that they are more than willing to pay the current market rates.

The move would be solid in my opinion, but wouldn't help the NHL in it's primary goal - to secure a lucrative U.S. television contract (which is why you saw the NHL putting teams in various sections of the U.S. with fairly large TV markets).
 
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...dmits-second-toronto-nhl-team-might-work.aspx

Bettman admits second Toronto NHL team 'might work'
Posted: January 24, 2009, 2:00 PM by Noah Love
Hockey, GTA, NHL

MONTREAL — NHL commissioner Gary Bettman held his annual All-Star news conference following the NHL Board of Governors meeting, and said he thought that if the league was to expand or forced to consider relocation, Toronto could probably handle a second team.

Mind you, he's not thinking about it, doesn't want you to think about it and seems to dread the thought of doing the legwork to make it happen.

"I'm not sure what level of research anybody has done on the subject, because we haven't done any," Bettman said at Montreal's Windsor Hotel, coincidentally the same place the league was founded in 1917. "While we haven't done a formal market study, intuitively, my guess is, on some basis somewhere it might work. You don't make what could be a billion dollar decision — the combination of buying a team and building a building — on intuitive instinct."

Reporters saved their questions about two of the things Bettman often bristles at — more Canadian teams and RIM founder Jim Balsillie as a prospective owner — until the very end of the session. Even still, Bettman was fully prepared to dash the dreams of any who might be thinking of say, buying the Nashville Predators and moving them to Mississauga or Hamilton.

Here is Bettman on a few of those topics:

* On Balsillie as a possible owner of another Toronto team: "Nobody has been identified as a potential owner and nobody has a divine right if we're gonna do that franchise. Frankly, if we're gonna put a franchise there, we would look at anybody and everybody who would be interested and pick the person who we think would be best."
* On Toronto as a site for relocation: "My gut sense is, when you look at that market, there are lots of people who love hockey and it's a pretty vibrant and rich market, but it's not that simple. One, I find it hard to believe that we as a league would have any appetite to go into an antique building. So, if we ever went down that road, we would need a new building. How's it gonna get built? How's it going to be built? Where's it going to be put? All things nobody's given any thought to whatsoever."
* On what would create a window for either of these things to happen: If we get to a point that we're moving a franchise or we decide to expand, neither of which we're doing right now, we will open it up, study it and look at all comers to see what might make sense and what would be the best thing for this league.
 
Shouldn't Quebec City and Winnipeg get an NHL team first?? It only seems fair.

edit: Plus, they'll hate us even more after we have two teams and they none.
 
why would that be fair? Since when does fairness play into a business decision?

While I agree Winnipeg should at least have a team, Quebec City needs a whole new arena if they ever want a new team, and even then I don't think they'd have the corporate support. I'm even sceptical that Winnipeg would have the corporate support, but at least they have a building (even if it does need to be expanded, which luckily they made possible in the plans for the new building)

A team in the Golden Horseshoe would immediately become one of the top ten money making teams in the league. My first instinct was to say top 5, but that would depend on where they would locate the team.

Ultimately, Nashville, Phoenix, Atlanta would be the most likely teams to relocate, and you'd easily be able to find optimal situations for them in the Toronto area, Winnipeg and Seattle. If a fourth team wanted to move, you'd have either Hartford (who has renewed interest in a team and is looking to build a new arena) or Quebec City to fall back on. This declines the notion that Vegas and Kansas City shouldn't be considered.

In my opinion you'll see another team in Ontario by 2012. Something drastic will happen if this recession in the US reaches immense proportions, and I can't see some of the teams mentioned above surviving consider their current states.
 
I think North York, preferably at Yonge/Sheppard, would make a great location for a new franchise. Hamilton has been thrown around a lot after Balsille tried to move the Predators into Copps, but I don't know how well thought out that was. Hamilton would be near empty on corporate support (Stelco?) and the local economy is hardly solid. Plus, a major part of building arenas in this day and age involves developing the arena in tandem with other real estate projects (MLS...) to offset the high costs. Unless we get the Hamilton Stinsons, I don't think there is much of a chance of this in Hamilton.

My preference:

1.) North York
2.) MCC
3.) Downtown Toronto (maybe Portlands?)
4.) K/W.
 
The New York ISLANDERS may be available...

Everyone: The New York Islanders may be available-the team's owner - Charles B. Wang - CEO of LI's Computer Associates - is not satistfied with the Nassau Coliseum and wants a new arena but probably will not get one from the County of Nassau. He is proposing a mega-complex in central Nassau County called the Lighthouse Project which would include a tall skyscraper (A first for LI) as well as a new arena to house the Islanders. For more info look here:
www.lighthouseli.com/ But-the question is: Will the Nassau County Government OK it and will those bankrolling it actually build it? Can a car-dependent and mostly saturated area support even more development?

I have heard-Kansas City is seeking a NHL franchise and has talked with him about a possible move there. Why not consider a hockey heaven like the Golden Horseshoe? How about the:
HAMILTON ISLANDERS?

The NY Islanders are today like a stepchild to the older established Rangers and recently established NJ Devils compared to their glory days of the four consecutive Stanley Cups back in the early 80s. Maybe a move may revitalize them - I am thinking of the "Three's a Crowd" syndrome here-especially since the NJ Devils have become the consistent team they are-three Stanley Cups certainly do not hurt!

- Thoughts and insight from Long Island Mike -
 
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