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Globe: Second NHL Team for Toronto?

Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
I think in this economic climate, they could easily get a better site. I'd rather not be stuck with a team in such a poor location. It's like real estate, the three key words are location, location, location. Just finding a blank slate of land is easy. Finding a good one will take some time, but it's better in the long run. The first priority should be choosing somewhere that is served by GO since GO serves Jays/Raptors/Leafs/TFC games very well, and without that GO backbone, traffic would be crazy for a team that relied on highways for people to get there.
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Since putting an arena beside Union Station has already been done.....every other location is going to be inferior as that is the only place that is fully served (and planned to be fully served) by all GO lines. Even as it stands today, GO only serves the sports teams you mentioned, in a meaningful way, if you live on the Lakeshore line.....so a small percentage of the region's population.

I am not sure it is all about finding the best site or the ideal site...it is about finding a pretty good site and one that you control. They have that.

Does GO serve it? Not now but why can't it? You could run GO buses to that site just as easy as you can to MCC (as both sites would be lacking GO Trains)...so why not? Just like MCC has a higher order transit system planned...so does this site...2 actually (Viva and Acceleride).

None of the sites discussed have a subway so that is not a factor ......although this one will end up being closer to a subway (so easier to run shuttle buses) than any other..

....and, again, they already own this site......if the story in the Globe is true at all......Joseph Sgro attended the meeting.....Joseph Sgro works for Vic DeZen......Vic De Zen already owns and is developing this site.....so if you have a site already under control/ownership that is pretty good.....why do you waste any money/time/effort looking for a slightly better one when, in fact, the value of the other land you own around this site will increase dramatically by putting a team here.....the value of the hotel you built next door goes through the roof, etc etc.

We, as outsiders and fans, can talk/debate/argue all we want about the ideal or perfect site.....the reality is that land use/control/profit will rule the day and decide where it should go.
 
As far as I'm aware, no one has been awarded a second Toronto NHL franchise, so because one person owns a site somewhere doesn't mean that's where it'll go.

And pray tell why we should settle for a mediocre site? Toronto deserves better than that.

And there's no reason we can't build a second NHL arena on the subway. I'm sure there's lots of choices. Downsview and VCC come to mind (I don't like either, but they're still better than 427/7).

And yes, I think the time searching for a better site is time well used.

We already had Vaughan hijack the first (only?) new subway in Toronto, we don't need Vaughan hijacking a new NHL team too.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
As far as I'm aware, no one has been awarded a second Toronto NHL franchise, so because one person owns a site somewhere doesn't mean that's where it'll go.

And pray tell why we should settle for a mediocre site? Toronto deserves better than that.

And there's no reason we can't build a second NHL arena on the subway. I'm sure there's lots of choices. Downsview and VCC come to mind (I don't like either, but they're still better than 427/7).

And yes, I think the time searching for a better site is time well used.

We already had Vaughan hijack the first (only?) new subway in Toronto, we don't need Vaughan hijacking a new NHL team too.
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Maybe you and I have been discussing at cross purposes...I thought we were discussing the article in the Globe in which a group with an identified site that they owned had held discussions with the NHL. In that context I see no value (other than entertainment) in debatiing/suggesting other sites that they don't and can't own.

If it is more theoretical discussion with no identified group or site and a wide open bidding situation for ownership and location....the debate is much different.

g'night.
 
Former Leaf fronts up Vaughan group
Article Comments (16)
DAVID SHOALTS
Globe and Mail Update
E-mail David Shoalts | Read Bio | Latest Columns
April 23, 2009 at 7:08 PM EDT
http://sports.theglobeandmail.com/s....wsptmcguire23/GSStory/GlobeSportsHockey/home

Kevin Maguire, a former Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres player, is the front man for the group of business executives interested in putting a second NHL team in Toronto.

Maguire, 46, declined to identify the members of the group yesterday, saying the media attention in the wake of a Globe and Mail story about a meeting between NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and several members of the group damaged its cause.

"At this time, we are not ready to release the names of the people," Maguire said, declining further comment.

The group wants to build an arena on a plot of land owned by a company controlled by businessman Vic De Zen in the city of Vaughan, Ont., at the intersection of Highways 427 and 7. De Zen is not involved in the potential ownership of an NHL team. Officials from the Zzen Group of Companies Ltd., which owns the land, did not return calls for comment.

Vaughan Mayor Linda Jackson came out in support of the idea on Thursday.

"As Mayor, I am constantly working to attract new business, create jobs and stimulate the economy, especially in these difficult economic times," Jackson said in a news release. "Certainly getting an NHL team would be a massive shot in the arm for the City of Vaughan and a benefit for hockey fans across the GTA."

Members of the group were told by Daly that the NHL is not ready to expand or relocate one of its struggling franchises at this time. Maguire was quoted in Jackson's press release as acknowledging this.

"I truly believe getting an NHL team would be tremendous for the City of Vaughan, but the league has said that a second team in the Toronto area is not something that's on their radar screen right now," he said. "However, we wanted the NHL to know that if they ever change their mind, we think the City of Vaughan would be the best option and the proposed site the best location."

However, there is a growing number of NHL governors and owners who believe a second franchise for Toronto is a good idea even considering a fee as high as $200-million would have to be paid to the Toronto Maple Leafs to waive their territorial rights under NHL by-laws.

The group also appears to have the support of NHL Players' Association executive director Paul Kelly. He issued a statement saying he believes the issue of a second franchise for the Toronto area is worth further study. He said he has met interested "groups" but did not say he met with Maguire's party.

"Without discussing specifics, I have previously met informally with groups that have expressed an interest in putting a second team in Toronto or Southern Ontario," Kelly said. "The viability of a second team in Toronto or southern Ontario should be explored, so, in the event that relocation needs to be considered for franchises that are struggling where they are currently located, a well-informed decision can be made."

Maguire played for the Leafs in the 1986-87 season and then played three seasons for the Sabres and the Philadelphia Flyers before returning to the Leafs in 1990 for two more years. The Toronto native later worked as an NHL referee and then moved into a career in sales.
 
First of all, it's the NHL. If someone has a ticket and they live in Oshawa or they live in Hamilton, they're going to go to the game whether the drive is 10mins or 30 mins. We're not in Phoenix where placement of the arena has dictated whether people will go or not. There's way too much passion in this area for the sport for people to say "damn maybe if the game was in Mississauga and not Vaughn I'd go." So give your head a shake if you seriously think that.

Meanwhile, just because this one group has had talks doesn't mean a thing. You don't think a whole bunch of people/groups wouldn't want to be the entity that brings a 2nd team to Toronto? You don't think the NHL would take the biggest/best bid, rather than just agree to go with these guys? Look at how many entities are thinking of buying the Canadiens. You don't think a similar number would be interested in a 2nd team here? I don't think a team can come here without it first passing by the desks of Balsillie and Rogers first (even though they haven't expressed interest in an NHL team, but they are all about cross-marketing). So just because one group has had one meeting, doesn't mean they're the group that will come out on top. All this does is signal to the public and any other parties that might be interested that Toronto could get a 2nd team in the next 5 years.
 
really Leafs have a built in fanbase so large they will succeed if there is a 2nd team in the same area.

Actually it would make things far more interesting.
 
lordmandeep said:
really Leafs have a built in fanbase so large they will succeed if there is a 2nd team in the same area.

Actually it would make things far more interesting.
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Actually I think it might take a while to build a fan base and, for the first few years, the building might be a bit life-less.

Let's just say, for a minute, that this team came to town and located in Vaughan....that is about a 15 minute drive from my house.

Let me think how many games I would go to?.......that would be zero! I am a Leaf fan...have been since I came to this country 37 years ago....have absolutely no interest in cheering for another team (whether they be in Toronto, Vaughan, Edmonton or timbuktu).....why, just because tickets were more readily available, would I all of a sudden switch allegiances and start cheering for some other team?

Over time, as kids who grew up with the Vaughan Vipers in the NHL grew and matured and became part of the ticket buying public it might change but for now I think it would be a pretty dull place to be.....a visiting team playing a home team in front of fans of another team (the Leafs) who are there just because they can't get Leaf tickets.
 
.a visiting team playing a home team in front of fans of another team (the Leafs) who are there just because they can't get Leaf tickets.
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actually there a ton of people who cannot get to go to leaf games and if they have much cheaper tickets, I would imagine they would draw a crowd.
 
lordmandeep said:
actually there a ton of people who cannot get to go to leaf games and if they have much cheaper tickets, I would imagine they would draw a crowd.
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Well, if they have to sink $800 million to get started (as the article suggests)....I don't think their model will be based on "cheaper tickets".....even if it was, your response tells me you agree that they would be, essentially, Leaf fans there to watch two teams only because they can't get into the ACC?

So, essentially, a team playing 41 neutral ice games a year (until they build their own fans).
 
oh please. You're basing this on your own experience. Just because you're a leafs fan doesn't mean everyone is. There are a lot of non-Leafs fans in the region and a lot of "ya I guess I root for the Leafs because they're the local team" fans as well. Second, there are a lot of corporations that can't get tickets to Leafs games that would jump at the chance to get their box or platinum level season tickets. Corporate support is far more important than fan support. If you don't believe me, go ask Nashville.

Third, "cheaper" isn't the right word when you're comparing anything to the Leafs. The Leafs have the highest prices in the league, so of course tickets would be cheaper. But that doesn't mean they'll be super-cheap. They might decide to initially fall somewhere around 5th through 10th in the league in ticket prices and still make a lot of money. Finally, people jump on things really fast if they have reason to be excited about it. Look at TFC. Most people are fans of big Europeans clubs, but they loved the idea of having a local team they could actually root for and have access to. People might be Leafs fans, but if they feel they can get attached to this other team and can actually physically support them by showing up to the arena and seeing them play every game, they're likely to jump on board. Just because you won't do it means nothing, and the suggestion that they'll play in front of neutral fans is preposterous at best.
 
You got Me!!!!

^^ Busted.....your right, my opinions are often based on my expriences and the people I talk to and hang out with. No one I know is about to start supporting another team just because they start playing here.

I did not say it would not catch on....I just said it would take a while and "for the first few years, the building might be a bit life-less."

I still hold that opinion.....you, of course, are free to hold a different one and I will not mock it or anything...!

The TFC analogy, while interesting, is not fully applicable (yes, based upon my experiences).....I am one of those people with an almost 50 year allegiance to a team in Europe...yet I bought a bunch of TFC tickets because they play in totally different competitions and chearing for TFC does not, in anyway, lessen my support for the team in Europe.

In this NHL example, I would have to cheer against the Leafs (cause if I am chearing for the Vaughan Vipers to win the Stanley Cup I am, by definition, hoping the Leafs don't).....so the conflict would stop me from chearing for them!

It is just my opinion and is, likely, the very definition of preposterous ;)
 
Actually I think it might take a while to build a fan base and, for the first few years, the building might be a bit life-less.
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I don't know think the building would be "lifeless" , given the fact that Toronto hockey fans (or hockey fans in any major Canadian city) would pay to see good hockey, even if the game doesn't involve a team they root for (note that I wrote "good hockey" - we know the interest level in Toronto for anything less than NHL hockey just by looking at all the empty seats at a Marlies game).

During the 2004 World Cup of Hockey, the Slovakia-Russia game at the ACC drew 18,115, almost a full house. Only in Canada would you see so many people at a hockey game that doesn't involve the home team.
 
I think the only way Toronto will get a second NHL team will be if MLSE owns it.
 
Why not call the team the York Region Romans (apropos Vaughan's Italian heritage *and* one of Markham's erstwhile First Families)
 
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