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General railway discussions

Hopefully this happens. And hopefully the Ontario government is watching the project with an eye to doing something similar to Collingwood/Wasaga Beach.

I may be wrong but I see comparing Banff to Collingwood/Wasaga Beach as apples to oranges.

Banff is a major, international tourist destination, with a significant number of visitors flying into YYC. This means that a significant proportion of the visitors are traveling through YYC and without the train they would need to rent a car. There is also an existing active rail ROW that can be followed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Collingwood/Wasaga Beach are mostly visited by those who live all over the Golden Horseshoe. That means that people are coming from many different places, so there isn't a fixed origin (a train from Toronto would only serve a small portion of the visitors) and most likely already have a car. Also, there is no longer an active ROW rail that they can follow (though there may be an abandoned one).

It also seems to me as if Banff is a destination that you can get away without a car more easily at than Collingwood or Wasaga Beach (though I could be wrong on that one).
 
I may be wrong but I see comparing Banff to Collingwood/Wasaga Beach as apples to oranges.

They aren't the same, but there is a similar principal at play; serving a tourism niche, and a connection between a major urban centre that is the source of much of that demand and the tourism/resort location. The differences do need to be accounted for though.

Banff is a major, international tourist destination, with a significant number of visitors flying into YYC.

True, though the number of tourists visiting Banff is listed at ~4M per year; while the number of visits to Wasaga/Collingwood/Blue Mountain is ~12M. That set of stats, is, of course, deceptive. As overnight visits and multi-day stays will almost certainly be greater in Banff vs day visits in the Ontario setting.

However, day visits also mean more transportation demand back and forth vs that which Banff would generate.


This means that a significant proportion of the visitors are traveling through YYC and without the train they would need to rent a car.

No question that a much higher proportion of Banff's visitors arrive by air vs the Ontario context; and that a single point of origin is better suited to rail as a rule of thumb.

There is also an existing active rail ROW that can be followed.

(referring to Banff above) Yes, though it is the CP mainline, and therefore would require considerable capacity upgrades.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Collingwood/Wasaga Beach are mostly visited by those who live all over the Golden Horseshoe. That means that people are coming from many different places, so there isn't a fixed origin (a train from Toronto would only serve a small portion of the visitors)

See above

and most likely already have a car.

I wouldn't automatically draw that assumption in the GTA. But certainly most current visitors arrive by car.

There is a need there to separate potential market vs current market.

Also, there is no longer an active ROW rail that they can follow (though there may be an abandoned one).

There is an active ROW for a portion of the route, which is in poor condition and would have to be refurbished/replaced. There is an inactive, but largely in tact ROW most of the rest of the way; though there is no ROW right to the points of peak-interest. So that would either require spur construction or an alternative last mile link by bus.,


It also seems to me as if Banff is a destination that you can get away without a car more easily at than Collingwood or Wasaga Beach (though I could be wrong on that one).

I don't think I would draw that conclusion. If one is going to Banff, unless you're staying at a hotel/resort, you will need transportation to get to hiking trails in summer or ski hills in winter.

Where many Wasaga Beach go'ers would spend most or all of their day on the Beach; and skiers would spend their day inside the Blue Mountain Resort w/o need for a car.
 
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I may be wrong but I see comparing Banff to Collingwood/Wasaga Beach as apples to oranges.

Banff is a major, international tourist destination, with a significant number of visitors flying into YYC. This means that a significant proportion of the visitors are traveling through YYC and without the train they would need to rent a car. There is also an existing active rail ROW that can be followed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Collingwood/Wasaga Beach are mostly visited by those who live all over the Golden Horseshoe. That means that people are coming from many different places, so there isn't a fixed origin (a train from Toronto would only serve a small portion of the visitors) and most likely already have a car. Also, there is no longer an active ROW rail that they can follow (though there may be an abandoned one).

It also seems to me as if Banff is a destination that you can get away without a car more easily at than Collingwood or Wasaga Beach (though I could be wrong on that one).
For Collingwood and Wasaga Beach there needs to be a half hour bus service to Barrie GO with Semi Express to Toronto. Stops at Aurora and maybe Weston GO. Thats a start.
 
For Collingwood and Wasaga Beach there needs to be a half hour bus service to Barrie GO with Semi Express to Toronto. Stops at Aurora and maybe Weston GO. Thats a start.

I beleive Greyhound had a bus that followed that route, though not at that frequency. I would be surprised if it could support half hour frequencies though.
 
I beleive Greyhound had a bus that followed that route, though not at that frequency. I would be surprised if it could support half hour frequencies though.
They had two trips per day in each direction from Barrie to Owen sound.

The LINX bus is hourly but is really slow
 
I may be wrong but I see comparing Banff to Collingwood/Wasaga Beach as apples to oranges.

Banff is a major, international tourist destination, with a significant number of visitors flying into YYC. This means that a significant proportion of the visitors are traveling through YYC and without the train they would need to rent a car. There is also an existing active rail ROW that can be followed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Collingwood/Wasaga Beach are mostly visited by those who live all over the Golden Horseshoe. That means that people are coming from many different places, so there isn't a fixed origin (a train from Toronto would only serve a small portion of the visitors) and most likely already have a car. Also, there is no longer an active ROW rail that they can follow (though there may be an abandoned one).

It also seems to me as if Banff is a destination that you can get away without a car more easily at than Collingwood or Wasaga Beach (though I could be wrong on that one).
To add to Northern Light's post, attractions around Collingwood are more centralized and Banff is more spread out than you think. Blue Mountian, for example, has a self contained village unlike any of the ski resorts in Banff. And Banff isn't just a town, it's a massive wilderness park. Collingwood is also more of a hassle to get to. Highway 26 is undivided and busy, the 400 has nightly traffic jams, and the drive to Collingwood has more snow on average. I've seen rural traffic jams for several kilometres outside Blue Mountain in peak season. That kind of model is exactly what Banff is trying to change. The impact of mass tourism is a lot smaller if they're not all bringing cars with them. The south Georgian Bay area should be doing the same.

Car ownership is, frankly, not relevant. Most Via Rail riders own cars, as do most Europeans. Where taking the train is a more attractive option than driving, people take it even if they have a car.

According to the article about Banff, their project involves laying 150 km of new track. A rebuilt line to Collingwood would be simpler, only 1/3 of that length. As an alternative to widening Highway 26 it could actually save money. With the Barrie line providing the backbone for the route and Via's HFR providing the template for reactivating abandoned rail lines, I could see this happening eventually.
 
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They had two trips per day in each direction from Barrie to Owen sound.

The LINX bus is hourly but is really slow

The Linx bus isn’t that slow (at least the Allandale-Angus-Wasaga Beach section, which is limited stop), but it requires a transfer in Wasaga Beach to another route to Downtown Collingwood, and the Barrie-Wasaga route doesn’t run on weekends.
 
The Linx bus isn’t that slow (at least the Allandale-Angus-Wasaga Beach section, which is limited stop), but it requires a transfer in Wasaga Beach to another route to Downtown Collingwood, and the Barrie-Wasaga route doesn’t run on weekends.
Which makes no sense. GO transit should pickup the route that Greyhound had but from Barrie. With hourly trips is a good start, first bus to meet the first bus from Barrie and the last one with a connection to the last bus to Barrie from Toronto.
 
Which makes no sense. GO transit should pickup the route that Greyhound had but from Barrie. With hourly trips is a good start, first bus to meet the first bus from Barrie and the last one with a connection to the last bus to Barrie from Toronto.
Until July 1st, they couldn't.

Now that intercity buses in Ontario are no longer regulated, they can now do this. (As well as the long-wanted direct bus from Kitchener to Toronto.)

Whether they actually do, however, is another question.

Dan
 
Until July 1st, they couldn't.

Now that intercity buses in Ontario are no longer regulated, they can now do this. (As well as the long-wanted direct bus from Kitchener to Toronto.)

Whether they actually do, however, is another question.

Dan
We have some double deckers in storage that they could use for this route. Just need to create bus stops and build a terminal in Collingwood. The old bus station in owensound should still be in good condition. Presto readers would need to be installed along the route where there are bus stops.
 
We have some double deckers in storage that they could use for this route. Just need to create bus stops and build a terminal in Collingwood. The old bus station in owensound should still be in good condition. Presto readers would need to be installed along the route where there are bus stops.
You are assuming that the double decker buses that they have in storage are able to operate into Collingwood, either on a main route or any alternate routes that may be necessary.

Without an inspection and inventory of all overhead structures and devices, this is a big assumption to make. It would be more logical to use the MCI highway coaches, which have fewer operating route restrictions.

Dan
 
Which makes no sense. GO transit should pickup the route that Greyhound had but from Barrie. With hourly trips is a good start, first bus to meet the first bus from Barrie and the last one with a connection to the last bus to Barrie from Toronto.

I can't help wonder if Ontario Northland would be a better option than GO transit. Correct me if I am wrong, but GO seems to be more focused on commuters and day trippers and thus don't have much space for luggage. It seems to me that while there might be some demand from those who want to commute or do a day trip from Collingwood/Wasaga Beach to Toronto, most of the demand would be for recreational travel, and a service that is better setup to handle more luggage would make more sense.

I suspect the government is waiting to see how the dust settles after COVID and the demise of Greyhound before reacting. They would likely rather see a private sector solution and backfill where private operators can't operate profitably.
 
I can't help wonder if Ontario Northland would be a better option than GO transit. Correct me if I am wrong, but GO seems to be more focused on commuters and day trippers and thus don't have much space for luggage. It seems to me that while there might be some demand from those who want to commute or do a day trip from Collingwood/Wasaga Beach to Toronto, most of the demand would be for recreational travel, and a service that is better setup to handle more luggage would make more sense.

I suspect the government is waiting to see how the dust settles after COVID and the demise of Greyhound before reacting. They would likely rather see a private sector solution and backfill where private operators can't operate profitably.

You make a good point about luggage capacity for skis, beach gear, etc., but, in terms of bus routes to C'wood/WB, I suspect the government is not thinking about it at all.
 

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