Northern Light
Superstar
'West Harbour' is what you meant!
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General railway discussions
- Thread starter Urban Sky
- Start date
'West Harbour' is what you meant!
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Yeah that thought did occur to me, but the West Harbour situation is really awful, adding 10 minutes to the trip time. Definitely doable as a stop-gap measure, but not a long-term solution.
Northern Light
Superstar
Montreal is also set to get 'enhanced service' on its existing corridor to NYC. We should find out what that means in the re-authorization package.
Not such a surprise, it was listed in the re-authorization package last year and in 2019.
Note, that in that article above, it indicated the plan was to run the train as 'VIA' in Ontario.
I was more intrigued by the 'enhanced service' Toronto to NYC.
I'm not sure what they have in mind (reduced travel time would the obvious thing), but not sure if they're thinking additional frequency.
crs1026
Superstar
^One has to assume that the wish list of projects will get whittled down a little, but many are fairly longstanding. In fact, I wondered if the rail passenger portion of the infrastructure project was so detailed (as opposed to say highway bridge, dam or levee refurbishment projects, which are also badly needed in the US) because many of the projects have been well documented for some time and it was just a matter of collating various proposals and works-in-progress. Certainly the major Virginia project wasn't negotiated in the past few weeks.
The point is, if even half get funded and actioned....it's an ambitious expansion.
- Paul
The point is, if even half get funded and actioned....it's an ambitious expansion.
- Paul
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Ah my mistake. I guess only a surprise to me then
.Given that customers all need to get off in Detroit to go through customs, I'm not sure if it's necessarily better to have the same Amtrak train continue to Toronto, versus just getting on a VIA train in Detroit.
Using Amtrak equipment through to Toronto has the advantage that the connection is guaranteed, but a couple disadvantages too:
- Border delays would be able to affect domestic Canadian train services
- Amtrak equipment is limited to 79 mph (127 km/h) in Canada since our signal systems don't meet their PTC requirements. Meanwhile VIA currently operates up to 100 mph (161 km/h) between Windsor and Chatham, and 95 mph (153 km/h) between Aldershot and Toronto.
I skimmed through the 2020-2025 service plan and it only mentions the extension of the Vermonter to Montreal, nothing on the Adirondack or Maple Leaf.
I think the big opportunity with the Adirondack is that once the customs facility opens, overnight services would become viable since customers no longer need to get bothered by customs en route. The line currently takes 10h30, which would be 9h25 without the customs stop or the stop in St Lambert. That's the perfect duration for an overnight train: depart Montréal at 23:00, arrive New York at 08:25.
As for the daytime service, I think the biggest issue is the (lack of) speed. Adding additional round trips wouldn't make the line any more attractive when it takes a 9h30 to cover just 600 km. That's nearly double the time it takes VIA to cover 550 km from Toronto to Montréal.
Part of the issue is that the train serves every single Amtrak station along its route, even where there are other overlapping services. Instead, the service could be repositioned as an express service, with other services picking up the local demand.
March 2020 timetable, marked up in red by me.
On top of dropping St Lambert, I think Rouses Points could be dropped as well. Once customs relocates to Montreal, I don't think the tiny town would warrant a station on its own. Or if the station is maintained, it could be served by the overnight service only (which would be conveniently timed for day trips to Montréal).
South of Fort Edward, the route is duplicated by the Ethan Allen Express which runs once daily. If that line is improved to twice daily, I think the stop in Saratoga Springs could be dropped.
In Albany there is a half-hour stop scheduled due to an engine swap: typically the train uses a P42DC diesel locomotive north of Albany and a P32AC Dual Mode locomotive south to New York (due to electric-only operations within Penn Station). But I don't fully understand why they go through the trouble of doing this given that the P32AC-DM is perfectly capable of running the whole way to Montréal. The P42 is more powerful, but its better acceleration wouldn't be enough to offset the half hour spent swapping engines. It must simply be a shortage of dual-mode locomotives. If this is the case, buying some more dual-mode locomotives would be a quick win, eliminating most of the engine swapping which happens in Albany.
South of Albany there is plenty of local service as part of the Empire Corridor. There's no need for the once-daily Adirondack to be serve any local demand. It could run non-stop through the segment, with a single stop at Croton Harmon to connect to Metro-North Commuter services for access to the northern suburbs of New York City, Harlem-125th and Grand Central Station.
The other half of the issue is the track quality north of Schenectady. Part of the problem is on the Canadian side of the border, given that it will still take 2 hours to get 115 km from Montréal to Plattsburgh even after the stops in St Lambert and Rouses Point are dropped.
For the Maple Leaf I think a similar strategy could help, with Amtrak keeping the service at only once per day, but improving the Empire Corridor local services to allow the Maple Leaf to serve fewer stations along the way.
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Northern Light
Superstar
Ah my mistake. I guess only a surprise to me then
Given that customers all need to get off in Detroit to go through customs, I'm not sure if it's necessarily better to have the same Amtrak train continue to Toronto, versus just getting on a VIA train in Detroit.
Using Amtrak equipment through to Toronto has the advantage that the connection is guaranteed, but a couple disadvantages too:
- Border delays would be able to affect domestic Canadian train services
- Amtrak equipment is limited to 79 mph (127 km/h) in Canada since our signal systems don't meet their PTC requirements. Meanwhile VIA currently operates up to 100 mph (161 km/h) between Windsor and Chatham, and 95 mph (153 km/h) between Aldershot and Toronto.
I skimmed through the 2020-2025 service plan and it only mentions the extension of the Vermonter to Montreal, nothing on the Adirondack or Maple Leaf.
I think the big opportunity with the Adirondack is that once the customs facility opens, overnight services would become viable since customers no longer need to get bothered by customs en route. The line currently takes 10h30, which would be 9h25 without the customs stop or the stop in St Lambert. That's the perfect duration for an overnight train: depart Montréal at 23:00, arrive New York at 08:25.
As for the daytime service, I think the biggest issue is the (lack of) speed. Adding additional round trips wouldn't make the line any more attractive when it takes a 9h30 to cover just 600 km. That's nearly double the time it takes VIA to cover 550 km from Toronto to Montréal.
Part of the issue is that the train serves every single Amtrak station along its route, even where there are other overlapping services. Instead, the service could be repositioned as an express service, with other services picking up the local demand.
March 2020 timetable, marked up in red by me.
View attachment 309799
On top of dropping St Lambert, I think Rouses Points could be dropped as well. Once customs relocates to Montreal, I don't think the tiny town would warrant a station on its own. Or if the station is maintained, it could be served by the overnight service only (which would be conveniently timed for day trips to Montréal).
South of Fort Edward, the route is duplicated by the Ethan Allen Express which runs once daily. If that line is improved to twice daily, I think the stop in Saratoga Springs could be dropped.
South of Albany there is plenty of local service as part of the Empire Corridor. There's no need for the once-daily Adirondack to be serve any local demand. I could run non-stop through the segment, with a single stop at Croton Harmon to connect to Metro-North Commuter services for access to the northern suburbs of New York City.
The other half of the issue is the track quality, primarily north of Schenectady. Part of the problem is on the Canadian side of the border, given that it will still take 2 hours to get from Montréal to Plattsburgh even after the stops in St Lambert and Rouses Point are dropped.
For the Maple Leaf I think a similar strategy could help, with Amtrak keeping the service at only once per day, but improving the Empire Corridor local services to allow the Maple Leaf to serve fewer stations along the way.
Agreed w/all the above.
Would add, I believe, pre-pandemic, there were 3 trains daily NYC-Buffalo. I often thought that having a Buffalo - Toronto rail shuttle, as a stand-alone service (not the same train as originating in NYC) would make sense.
But schedule it, if reliability permits to depart 1 hour after the train from NYC arrives; allow people to connect to the Toronto-Buffalo train.
( I perceive greater demand in Buffalo for Toronto than NYC, providing the customs nonsense is worked out); it is, after all, a much shorter trip. )
It could also be planned to work for a connection to service to/from Cleveland.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
So VIA would run from Toronto to New York?Ah my mistake. I guess only a surprise to me then
Given that customers all need to get off in Detroit to go through customs, I'm not sure if it's necessarily better to have the same Amtrak train continue to Toronto, versus just getting on a VIA train in Detroit.
Using Amtrak equipment through to Toronto has the advantage that the connection is guaranteed, but a couple disadvantages too:
- Border delays would be able to affect domestic Canadian train services
- Amtrak equipment is limited to 79 mph (127 km/h) in Canada since our signal systems don't meet their PTC requirements. Meanwhile VIA currently operates up to 100 mph (161 km/h) between Windsor and Chatham, and 95 mph (153 km/h) between Aldershot and Toronto.
I skimmed through the 2020-2025 service plan and it only mentions the extension of the Vermonter to Montreal, nothing on the Adirondack or Maple Leaf.
I think the big opportunity with the Adirondack is that once the customs facility opens, overnight services would become viable since customers no longer need to get bothered by customs en route. The line currently takes 10h30, which would be 9h25 without the customs stop or the stop in St Lambert. That's the perfect duration for an overnight train: depart Montréal at 23:00, arrive New York at 08:25.
As for the daytime service, I think the biggest issue is the (lack of) speed. Adding additional round trips wouldn't make the line any more attractive when it takes a 9h30 to cover just 600 km. That's nearly double the time it takes VIA to cover 550 km from Toronto to Montréal.
Part of the issue is that the train serves every single Amtrak station along its route, even where there are other overlapping services. Instead, the service could be repositioned as an express service, with other services picking up the local demand.
March 2020 timetable, marked up in red by me.
View attachment 309799
On top of dropping St Lambert, I think Rouses Points could be dropped as well. Once customs relocates to Montreal, I don't think the tiny town would warrant a station on its own. Or if the station is maintained, it could be served by the overnight service only (which would be conveniently timed for day trips to Montréal).
South of Fort Edward, the route is duplicated by the Ethan Allen Express which runs once daily. If that line is improved to twice daily, I think the stop in Saratoga Springs could be dropped.
In Albany there is a half-hour stop scheduled due to an engine swap: typically the train uses a P42DC diesel locomotive north of Albany and a P32AC Dual Mode locomotive south to New York (due to electric-only operations within Penn Station). But I don't fully understand why they go through the trouble of doing this given that the P32AC-DM is perfectly capable of running the whole way to Montréal. The P42 is more powerful, but its better acceleration wouldn't be enough to offset the half hour spent swapping engines. It must simply be a shortage of dual-mode locomotives. If this is the case, buying some more dual-mode locomotives would be a quick win, eliminating most of the engine swapping which happens in Albany.
South of Albany there is plenty of local service as part of the Empire Corridor. There's no need for the once-daily Adirondack to be serve any local demand. I could run non-stop through the segment, with a single stop at Croton Harmon to connect to Metro-North Commuter services for access to the northern suburbs of New York City.
The other half of the issue is the track quality, primarily north of Schenectady. Part of the problem is on the Canadian side of the border, given that it will still take 2 hours to get 115 km from Montréal to Plattsburgh even after the stops in St Lambert and Rouses Point are dropped.
For the Maple Leaf I think a similar strategy could help, with Amtrak keeping the service at only once per day, but improving the Empire Corridor local services to allow the Maple Leaf to serve fewer stations along the way.
So they would still use the Windsor station even if the train came from Detroit? Would they do customs clearance in Windsor?
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Toronto - Buffalo does have a lot of merit in terms of theoretical demand, but the issue really is that customs nonsense. If there's a customs facility in Toronto with trains running direct to Buffalo (non-stop between Toronto and Niagara Falls) it would be quite an attractive alternative to unpredictable bridge wait times by road. But I think that a customs facility in Toronto is a relatively long-term goal.
The first step for sorting out the customs nonsense would be to build an actual customs facility in Niagara Falls ON, since it could serve all the GO Transit and Amtrak trains there, rather than just the couple Amtrak trains which make it all the way to Toronto.
In the most recent timetable, two of the three daily trips from Niagara Falls toward New York are probably too early in the morning to provide a viable connection from Toronto. So adding a Niagara - Buffalo shuttle trip would indeed go a long way toward improving options between Toronto and Buffalo.
Here's a concept for a schedule which leverages expanded GO service to improve connections between Toronto and Buffalo. New trips are shown in darker colours.
I accounted for travel time improvements between Hamilton and Niagara, but left the rest of the times as per the current schedule. Given that the Toronto-Buffalo trip will still be painfully long, I figured that the extra Niagara-Buffalo trip would need to be implemented as cheaply as possible. So it's just an extension of a pre-existing round trip which currently spends the night in Niagara Falls. Instead it would turn around and spend the night in Buffalo.
The "deadhead" trips between Niagara Falls and Lewis Yard run in-service between at least St Catharines and Niagara Falls to provide a connection to a couple Amtrak services. The number of people actually going from St Catharines to the US at that time is probably minimal but the trips are passing by anyway so they might as well stop. The trips may also be useful to people just heading to Niagara Falls itself.
In an effort to cut down the scheduled customs time for the westbound Maple Leaf, I added a GO Train shortly behind it. This reduces the margin of error required in the schedule since any passengers which take longer than expected to clear customs can be accommodated on the subsequent GO train. There would presumably be a fare agreement in place for this purpose.
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
They definitely wouldn't do any customs clearance in Windsor. VIA trains would always be in the Canadian customs zone, so westbound passengers would go through customs upon arriving in Detroit, and eastbound passengers would go through customs before boarding in Detroit.
The percentage of trains which serve Windsor station would depend on whether the station is relocated onto the route to the tunnel. If the station is relocated it would probably be worthwhile to stop all trains, since the net time cost would be relatively low. If the station remains in its current location then it's much harder to justify stopping at the station, given the considerable time it would add.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
Could you build a wye so that the trains don't have to reverse into the station?
nfitz
Superstar
Probably - though which is the worse option? Though if you do a crew change at Windsor, and the trainsets are all designed for two-way operation then it might be an advantage.
Still, one requires a bit of work - and the other as far as I know, they could literally do tomorrow.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Sure, but I suspect that building the wye would cost just as much as building a new station anyway. Windsor doesn't require much, just a single platform and a building. And while we're at it, we could add a high-level platform, which is something the current station lacks.
nfitz
Superstar
I'm not that familiar with Windsor - but isn't the current station at (or near) the end of that spur? Why would you need tracks on different levels? It's a rare station with mainline service on different levels! (obviously some very big ones - but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_(High_Level)_railway_station comes to mind!)
Bordercollie
Senior Member
It's one piece of track to allow the train to pull into the station without backing up. How would that cost as much as a new station?
I was there about a month ago and I noticed that since only track 1 is being used, the second track has broken sleepers and missing ties, so when the trains return that will need to be fixed.
Also the switch before the startion is moved by hand, it would be good to convert it to automatic.
Also the jointed rail for the last 10 miles makes the last part or the journey really slow. Might be a good idea to fix that.
Is the track past the station still in use or abandoned?
nfitz
Superstar
I don't think jointed track makes the journey any slow ... CN achieved under 4 hours on Montreal to Toronto on jointed track. And I certainly remember riding VIA on jointed track between Montreal and Toronto at full speed ... I have a history term-paper somewhere that shows the difference in my writing between the jointed and welded sections, written on a Sunday night and due Monday!
Though that it's still jointed track suggests that it does need rehabilitating - and that's likely the issue with a speed restriction. Much like the VIA service between Guelph and Kitchener not that long ago.