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General railway discussions

(trying to move a discussion here from a less appropriate thread)

Re alternatives to Halifax/Saint John as container terminals - there is a healthy domestic trade - a less than huge container ship every couple of days - for container traffic from the Port of Montreal to St John's NL, and some to Saint John NB. And plenty of containers to other destinations - as I type this, Marine Traffic tells me that container ship MSC Maria Clara is inbound to Montreal from Le Havre, MSC Lena is outbound for Lithuania, and MSC Tamara is unloading from Valencia.

So it's certainly true that some shippers will accept the longer transit times of a longer sea segment, to reach the Port of Montreal, as opposed to shipping through the two busier container terminals in the Maritimes. But the slow transit through the Seaway locks is probably not attractive compared to rail from Montreal or further east.

The business case for shipping containers through Churchill seems a bit iffy, considering the volume that might be needed to fill a shipload, and the level of investment that would be needed to equip Churchill to transload that many containers....and the operational challenges of switching out that much traffic in Winnipeg. One can never say never, but while it may be "possible", it may not be worth the investment.

- Paul

It might be that MSC negotiated a favourable price with the POM and determined that a longer transit time is worth the trade-off of higher fees and/or longer wait times at Halport. It's been a bit of an ongoing wet dream to turn Sydney NS into a container terminal but it seems the many ducks that need to be lined up are all dying of old age..

I'm not sure the longer Seaway transit times would be as much of a deterrent as the physical capacity of the system to handle a typical sea-going container ship. Transloading to a Seaway-max container ship (if such a beast existed) would add cost, put added pressure on the ocean facilities and require the construction of inland facilities.
 
Because of our size rail travel will never be practical between Toronto and Montreal.
My VIA Premier Status earned by once-monthly business travel between exactly these two cities begs to politely disagree.

However maybe places between Toronto and North Bay, North Bay to Sudbury, Sudbury to Ottawa.

Other places would be Calgary to Edmonton, Winnipeg to Saskatoon? Saskatoon to Calgary?
How could any of these city-pairs possibly form an intercity passenger rail corridor which is more viable than Toronto-Montreal?

We've already seen with the gravity model that the ridership potential is roughly one order of magnitude lower for Calgary-Edmonton and yet another order of magnitude lower for what appears to be the next-most obvious corridors outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor:

1665062423543.png

Re-post from: Post 12,221
 
My VIA Premier Status earned by once-monthly business travel between exactly these two cities begs to politely disagree.


How could any of these city-pairs possibly form an intercity passenger rail corridor which is more viable than Toronto-Montreal?

We've already seen with the gravity model that the ridership potential is roughly one order of magnitude lower for Calgary-Edmonton and yet another order of magnitude lower for what appears to be the next-most obvious corridors outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor:

View attachment 431062
Re-post from: Post 12,221
ONR services the routes by bus - Toronto and North Bay, North Bay to Sudbury, Sudbury to Ottawa - and its a decent service. One issue is that there are two or three buses per day per destination and that is not enough. But there is not enough ridership to qualify those routes for consistent train service at the level VIA is working to attain on the Windor- QC corridor.

I came in very late last night, and almost on time, through VIA from Montreal. Pretty full train and very good service. Beats a bus every day. Not as quick, obviously, as Porter, but I could work in relative comfort and that was a plus. And anything VIA can do to improve average speed, frequency, comfort and service (and we know that some of this is coming) is only going to improve ridership. Bring on HFR. And more frequent service on GO LSW/E.
 
Because of our size rail travel will never be practical between Toronto and Montreal. However maybe places between Toronto and North Bay, North Bay to Sudbury, Sudbury to Ottawa.

Other places would be Calgary to Edmonton, Winnipeg to Saskatoon? Saskatoon to Calgary? I overheard a conversation about flying from Sault Ste Marie through Toronto with a 5 hour layover to fly to Winnipeg. It might be faster than driving but it's not fun.
Excuse me, what?
 
Right? Like, I don't even begin to understand the logic here.

MTL to TOR and back is without question currently the most popular route on VIA, for obvious reasons.
*2nd-busiest after TRTO-OTTW, but that route will become a segment of the TRTO-MTRL corridor post-HFR…
 
Hopefully this isn't behind a paywall - from the NY Times

Mismanagement and ‘Monster Trains’ Have Wrecked American Rail


- Paul

For anyone wanting to access the above piece, if you simply google 'monster trains America' the google link will pop up, and NYT has a deal allowing a google links through their paywall.

***

On the piece itself. Its essentially an indictment of the 'Precision Railroading' concept arguing that it and the associated ever longer 'monster trains' have led to lower market share for railways vs trucks, lower levels of passenger rail service, environmental negatives, unhappy customers (industry/agriculture/retail) and unhappy workers.

The piece argues, at a minimum for a legislative curtailment on train size; but also strongly advocates for outright nationalization of tracks.
 
This prompts a question from me then. At what point would we need to invest significantly in our railroads, and based on existing trackage nationally, do we actually *need* new infra anywhere? Freight or passenger? Or can we hyper-optimize our current network for the foreseeable future via signalling etc? From what I can see, as long as the railroads can uphold their contributions to the economy, the government has no incentive to tamper with the system, expanding it or otherwise.

This is a good leadin to that NY Times article.

Parts of PSR - the concept of scheduled railroading (as opposed to the "old way" of running trains when cars accumulate) with much more emphasis on metrics related to velocity and shipment trip timing - are not "bad" as an operating philosphy, and simply represent bringing railroad management into the new millenium of business management.. For all his bad points, Harrison was actually pretty insightful in terms of effort and capital spent versus value gained in railroading.... something that the previous managers couldn't see with the same detachment.

The problems with PSR as I see it are

a) the monster train approach restricts the viability of shipping any non-bulk commodity. That actually includes containerised traffic, in that the efficiency requirements dictate containers be operated out of a small number of hub yards with the assumption of intensive use of the road network for first-mile/last-mile drayage. One wonders when people will ask why their community's roads are being filled with container truck deliveries at taxpayer expense instead of bringing the shipments all the way to the customer by rail.

b) the commercial parameters of PSR suggest that railroads should restrict physical plant in the interest of minimising capitalisation, this leaves railways unable to handle peaks or upticks in demand - especially unforeseens.

c) Similarly, PSR calls on railways to shed low-return traffic and only serve shipments that represent a premium rate of return. This again passes a great deal of traffic over to trucks, passing the whole problem to those who pay for roads (ie the taxpayer). There is a lot of traffic that could deliver utility-grade rate of return but at premium capital roi is priced out of the market. This is a huge constraint on our economy since many industries that could benefit from access to rail for their products have to use trucks instead.

I am not a fan of outright nationalisation of railways, nor of nationalisation of the entire physical network. I'm not that small-c conservative, but even I believe that when public entrerprises reach that size they always become bloated and fail, and overly political. (Today's NY Times is also running an interesting article about California HSR that speaks to that) But there may be a role for the taxpayer to invest in the network where shareholders can't or won't invest.

I really like the idea that government backstop investment in capacity. For example, suppose a rail line would benefit from double tracking. Let government fund the second track, and let the railway use the added investment on a user-pay formula, with some proviso that as ton-miles grow the railway must buy in or amortise the investment. Kind of a lease-to-own scenario.

So far, railways are using trucking as their crutch and to their self interest. I wonder what it will take for the public to realize that all those trucks on the highway are there in part because railways make more money by exploiting the availability of roads. Maybe the cost of those roads should come out of railroad profits.

And maybe the taxpayer should subsidise traffic where rates can't deliver top of line rate of return.

I own both CN and CP shares, and I find the dividends that I am paid to be quite attractive. Ironically, I bought my shares back before PSR, when railways were a much less attractive investment. I never expected my shares to deliver this much in earnings or in increased market value. It's arguable that railways are utilities and not blue chip industries, and no one should expect blue chip rates of return. That transition would create huge screams on Wall Street - and among pensioners, since railways are in large part held by institutional investors. But the greater good may lie in not letting railways be high-power capitalists as PSR would suggest.

- Paul
 
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This is a good leadin to that NY Times article.

Parts of PSR - the concept of scheduled railroading (as opposed to the "old way" of running trains when cars accumulate) with much more emphasis on metrics related to velocity and shipment trip timing - are not "bad" as an operating philosphy, and simply represent bringing railroad management into the new millenium of business management.. For all his bad points, Harrison was actually pretty insightful in terms of effort and capital spent versus value gained in railroading.... something that the previous managers couldn't see with the same detachment.

The problems with PSR as I see it are

a) the monster train approach restricts the viability of shipping any non-bulk commodity. That actually includes containerised traffic, in that the efficiency requirements dictate containers be operated out of a small number of hub yards with the assumption of intensive use of the road network for first-mile/last-mile drayage. One wonders when people will ask why their community's roads are being filled with container truck deliveries at taxpayer expense instead of bringing the shipments all the way to the customer by rail.

b) the commercial parameters of PSR suggest that railroads should restrict physical plant in the interest of minimising capitalisation, this leaves railways unable to handle peaks or upticks in demand - especially unforeseens.

c) Similarly, PSR calls on railways to shed low-return traffic and only serve shipments that represent a premium rate of return. This again passes a great deal of traffic over to trucks, passing the whole problem to those who pay for roads (ie the taxpayer). There is a lot of traffic that could deliver utility-grade rate of return but at premium capital roi is priced out of the market. This is a huge constraint on our economy since many industries that could benefit from access to rail for their products have to use trucks instead.

Agreed on the above:

I am not a fan of outright nationalisation of railways, nor of nationalisation of the entire physical network. I'm not that small-c conservative, but even I believe that when public entrerprises reach that size they always become bloated and fail, and overly political. (Today's NY Times is also running an interesting article about California HSR that speaks to that) But there may be a role for the taxpayer to invest in the network where shareholders can't or won't invest.

Disagree on the above and subsequent.

Reasoning:

For the very reason you note, that in the current system, taxpayers subsidize trucking via publicly-owned highways, I see no reason to double-down on that error by now subsidizing the profit of private railways by also subsidizing their track.

If you generally have faith that the MTO manages highway infra acceptably, and GO/VIA manage their owned trackage acceptably I see no reason a national track owner can't do the same.

Its funny to me that we tend to speak unfavourably of government ownership of many things.........yet, almost everyone remembers Air Canada as a public company more favourably, almost everyone remembers CN as public company more favourably. (some of that may be nostalgia that overlooks some shortcomings, but I digress)

They may have been less efficient, but they tended to provide better jobs and better customer service/experience.

Of course, large public enterprise can be unwieldy and there is no risk-free choice. But I think the highway model and national rail ownership models in Europe have shown superior outcomes overall.

I would toll every public 400-series highway, and leave trucking as a private activity.

I would charge full cost recovery for access to a publicly-owned rail network in the same fashion.

Railways would own the track in their yards; and possibly industrial spurs (or those could be owned by the businesses in question), as well as rollingstock and customer acquisition.

But the network should be national. I would contend.

* on rollingstock when Canadian Wheat Board was responsible for grain cars, we never seemed to have a shortage of them......there may be a space for considering either public, industrial/agricultural sector or other ownership model for high priority commodity goods whose volumes can fluctuate quickly.

This could be wholesale ownership; or could be complimentary/buffer to that which the railways own themselves.
 
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Agreed on the above:

If you generally have faith that the MTO manage's highway infra acceptably, and GO/VIA manage their owned trackage acceptably I see no reason a national track owner can't do the same.

Well, while I respect many of the people who make those organizations run, I'm not so sure I would hold up either the VIA HFR initiative or Metrolinx as a model of public enterprise and network decisionmaking run well. That may be more an indictment of the political process than those organizations, but one would have to demonstrate that those executive disfunctions are fixable before I would add another enterprise to the mix.

The MTO model may be more the right direction - in that you don't see many MTO trucks on the highways any more. It is pretty much contracted out. Perhaps that is the right operational model.... government owns but work is done through contractors. There are still risks (as there are in anything) but they seem more manageable. Even there, I'm not sure I am happy about how the 400-series highway network is expanding, or how that is funded.

Its funny to me that we tend to speak unfavourably of government ownership of many things.........yet, almost everyone remembers Air Canada as public company more favourably, almost everyone remembers CN as public company more favourably. (some of that may be nostalgia that overlooks some shortcomings, but I digress)

As I say, I'm not that small-c conservative, so it's not an ideological objection.... maybe I'm just cranky about how things are running these days. Certainly, I would not hold up our telcos as an example of networks benefitting from private ownership. The problem again may not be the people in those organizations, but the need for a regulatory environment that pretends to simulate free market mechanics.

Somewhere on line I found a bunch of old pre-Tellier CN employee newsletters. It was striking just how many people they had in so many places. The contraction in CN's operations that came with the Tellier transition is remarkable - and speaks to why Ottawa was seized with privatization. Harrison was just a Tellier student who got to the front of the class.... I would argue that a lot of the changes in CN, AC, and others were needed and would have happened naturally - PSR was just a mutant strain of business improvement that caused as much harm as good.

I agree that government needs to be involved, and public money needs to flow somehow.... and not for the shareholders' benefit.

I would toll every public 400-series highway, and leave trucking as a private activity.

That is a logical place to start in Ontario, but one ought to go further and look at the funding of the TCH, and at investment local roads. Derry Road or Steeles in Mississauga are good examples, as is the new Tremaine roadway and 401 interchange that is being built to support the Milton CN terminal.The 401 westwards out of Toronto on weekday mornings now looks like I-75 did southbound out of Detroit before the 2008 recession.... two solid lanes of trucks and one lane of autos.


- Paul
 
Honestly, I'd be a lot more open to preserving private ownership in the US were the mega mergers not established fact; smaller railroads would be a lot more reasonable to bring back in line with regulation.

As for the Canadian situation, I have roughly the same thought, through the lens of having had essentially two mega carriers for a century... The duopoly made a lot of sense when one was public, but fixing it now is messy bar a full nationalization of both. I do wonder if, especially given that CN and CP are somewhat less broken than the big 4 American class 1s, building a new public system might make more sense than outright nationalization*...

Also, for anyone still struggling to find the article, it is very much a re-statement of any of Justin's podcast appearances about the strike over the past few week.

*Consider what the railway network as a whole would look like if largely left as is but with a nationalized track owner controlling access to:
  • a full HFR build out,
  • greenfield Edmonton - Calgary - Vancouver (Alberta H(F/S)R plus a new mountain crossing),
  • GTA Missing link
  • nationalized CN Halton and York subs
Add a regulatory structure that allows provinces to force passenger service and electrification onto urban tracks with sufficient provision of publicly owned bypasses on the model of what I propose for Toronto and I think you'd be looking at something with real long term viability.
 
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My VIA Premier Status earned by once-monthly business travel between exactly these two cities begs to politely disagree.
What do you give up for that status, though? Time - certainly. Overnight stays because you will otherwise miss an early or late meeting? Probably. Many of us are under tighter budget and/or time constraints, forcing us to use YTZ/YYZ instead. I have never been able to justify even Ottawa by rail - air travel while more annoying in many ways usually has more frequency than VIA, and the lack of wait for the next service cuts into the annoyance of security checks etc. - not to mention that Air Canada and Porter don't have to wait for a slot because UPS or Fedex own the airspace and get priority routing.
 
Thought I'd bring this up in this thread, the contract for the stations builds has gone into procurement (RFQ) for the Langley SkyTrain extension. The average cost of a station will be 59.375MM$

I think this really highlights how important it is to build more elevated in the GTA, underground stations are what... ten times the cost?
There will obviously be escalations but this is the current budgeted amount, all in it will probably end up being under 75MM$ per station.
Very important as we look forward to future extensions of the Ontario Line (North and West) to fight for lower costs and more transit for everyone
 

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