General railway discussions

[KevinT]

So Amtrak now owns Washington's Union Station, here's their press release:

Amtrak | With New Responsibility at Washington Union Station, Amtrak is Initiating Plan to Elevate the Travel Experience

And the media's take on it:

Washington Post | Amtrak just took over Union Station. What does it mean for riders?

The Washington Post article is paywalled, but I think you get a freebie or two per month if you give them an email address, which you can always unsubscribe later. Two highlights:

“There’s been this sort of artificial barrier through the middle of the building which we’ve been prevented from using it for the purpose it exists for,” said Roger Harris, Amtrak’s president. The terminal, he said, should be efficiently routing passengers to their trains.

--- snip ---

“There are some very basic things that could change on Day 1,” Harris said. “The queuing for [Amtrak trains] is very crunched up, and where we might have hundreds of people waiting, we now have more space in which to queue customers.” Harris said Amtrak may reconfigure the terminal so that vacant commercial real estate is moved elsewhere in the station to accommodate the queue space expansion, but the company is still in the process of figuring that out.

Union Station stakeholders, including Amtrak and the Union Station Redevelopment Corp. (which maintains oversight of the station as the federal government’s master leaseholder), have planned a larger modernization project that could cost $8.8 billion and take 13 years to complete, though there is no clear construction timeline yet. Renderings suggest a wide station atrium with trees and glass walls that let sunlight illuminate the building, as well as revamped tracks and concourses.

 

[micheal_can]

All three are, in fact, part of the Greater Golden Horseshoe.

So, instead of GTA, it would be correct to use GGH?
I'll try to remember.

I think the other point of contention is that Peterborough, and Collingwood will never have GO trains. Neither will ever have the population to support even a single daily service and that's without factoring in the enormous capital costs of having to build or rebuild railway lines to those towns.

Peterborough might when/if VIA HFR is built.
Collingwood might for the same reasons Niagara does - tourism.

I was more using them as locations to describe the areas out of the GTA that is not Southwestern Ontario.

 

[C_Johnson_1995]

Peterborough might when/if VIA HFR is built.
Collingwood might for the same reasons Niagara does - tourism.

I was more using them as locations to describe the areas out of the GTA that is not Southwestern Ontario.

If HFR is built there would be no incentive or reason to let slow stopping GO trains on an express line to hold up other traffic. Also HFR should bypass Peterborough if it is at all interested in having competitive travel times.

But moving on, I'm going to cross-pollinate from this thread to highlight something important:

Orangeville-Brampton Railway (OBRY)

If Brampton really wanted to ensure it didn’t come back, putting new sewer/stormwater infra under the alignment might be a more firm way to say “stop dreaming, it’s over”

urbantoronto.ca

If you are going to run a branchline with a Stadler FLIRT, first ask yourself why a bus would not be sufficient. If you can't answer that question, then your desire to a have a train service is motivated by being a railfan (foamer) rather than wanting better transport.

Some towns and cities like Cambridge and Collingwood will only ever be the domain of busses and that should be considered okay. Even when considering an energy usage perspective, anything less than the current 12 car GO Train model likely has a low average passenger load and results in better GHG and energy efficiency per passenger mile for busses.

 

[lenaitch]

So, instead of GTA, it would be correct to use GGH?
I'll try to remember.

There's an alphabet soup of planning regions; Greater Toronto Area, Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area, Golden Horseshoe, Greater Golden Horseshoe. I'm not sure they are all still relevant, but those that are used in government planning documents have a defined area.

 

[Northern Light]

I think the other point of contention is that Peterborough, and Collingwood will never have GO trains. Neither will ever have the population to support even a single daily service and that's without factoring in the enormous capital costs of having to build or rebuild railway lines to those towns.

On Collingwood, I'd be inclined to agree, though 'ever' is a very long time indeed, and I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far.

IF HFR/HSR becomes reality via Peterborough, then in one fashion or another it will have commuter rail to Toronto.

I'm not sure I'd get caught up in the livery.

 

[Urban Sky]

If HFR is built there would be no incentive or reason to let slow stopping GO trains on an express line to hold up other traffic.

The reason why there won‘t be GO service to Peterborough us that GO has zero interest in operating a service which has virtually zero ridership potential at stations between Locust Hill and Peterborough itself. That‘s why Peterborough‘s only chance of regaining passenger rail seevice is intercity rail.

Also HFR should bypass Peterborough if it is at all interested in having competitive travel times.

No HSR line built in Europe would bypass a city the size and importance (university city with significant industries) of Peterborough without having at least some trains serve it. Whether that station will be in the city is rather determined by questions of whether the necessary grade separations (especially with the Trent canal) can be achieved…

But moving on, I'm going to cross-pollinate from this thread to highlight something important:

Orangeville-Brampton Railway (OBRY)

If Brampton really wanted to ensure it didn’t come back, putting new sewer/stormwater infra under the alignment might be a more firm way to say “stop dreaming, it’s over”

urbantoronto.ca

If you are going to run a branchline with a Stadler FLIRT, first ask yourself why a bus would not be sufficient. If you can't answer that question, then your desire to a have a train service is motivated by being a railfan (foamer) rather than wanting better transport.

That‘s indeed a question which is completely ignored by some railfans in forums and threads like this one, especially those railfans which are based in Sudbury and should be best ignored in their desperate attempts to bring themselves into every single conversation we are trying to have…

Some towns and cities like Cambridge and Collingwood will only ever be the domain of busses and that should be considered okay. Even when considering an energy usage perspective, anything less than the current 12 car GO Train model likely has a low average passenger load and results in better GHG and energy efficiency per passenger mile for busses.

Whereas I’m inclined to agree on Collingwood (though only for my own lifetime), I wrote an entire Master Thesis on describing a timetable concept for the Kitchener Corridor, which would have half-hourly Semi-Express Toronto-Kitchener trains split in Guelph to serve Cambridge (and I mean all its three constituents: Hespeler, Preston and Galt) through the Fergus Sub. Conversely, extending the Milton Line to Cambridge is unrealistic because it means sharing the CP Toronto-Chicago corridor for another 50(?) km without any significant population catchment inbetween…

 

[Northern Light]

Whereas I’m inclined to agree on Collingwood (though only for my own lifetime), I wrote an entire Master Thesis on describing a timetable concept for the Kitchener Corridor, which would have half-hourly Semi-Express Toronto-Kitchener trains split in Guelph to serve Cambridge (and I mean all its three constituents: Hespeler, Preston and Galt) through the Fergus Sub. Conversely, extending the Milton Line to Cambridge is unrealistic because it means sharing the CP Toronto-Chicago corridor for another 50(?) km without any significant population catchment inbetween…

Just to answer the question mark (you got me curious)

I didn't put any thought into where a Cambridge Station would go really, I just drew the line up to the Grand River and a rail yard as that seemed reasonably central.

***

I will insert here that I think there is a fairly good case, based on Milton's growth patters to extend the line by one stop, approximately 2km further west, after that you're into a rural area for the foreseeable future.

But allowing for that (should it happen), your gap would be reduced slightly to ~40km

 

[crs1026]

The time to research the Cambridge extension is about 06:45 on a weekday morning, or later in the day around 17:00. Just stand on any overpass along the 401 west of Milton. Now take the money that is earmarked for widening the 401 from Milton to Highway 8, and ask CPKC whether it is sufficient to build a dedicated track for GO between Campbellville and the Grand River. I am pretty sure that the GO expansion will be the cheaper option.

Personally, I would run the extension west up the hill from Galt (CPKC willing, that is, to share the Grand River bridge) to somewhere near Ayr, where the CP line is within sight of the 401. Plenty of room for parking out there.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

The time to research the Cambridge extension is about 06:45 on a weekday morning, or later in the day around 17:00. Just stand on any overpass along the 401.Now take the money that is earmarked for widening the 401 from Milton to Highway 8, and ask CPKC whether it is sufficient to build a dedicated track for GO between Campbellville and the Grand River. I am pretty sure that the GO expansion will be the cheaper option.

- Paul

The question is not whether a passenger rail connection should be restored to Cambridge (it absolutely should!), but whether extending the Milton Line is the more cost-effective way to achieve it than branching off the Kitchener Line along the Fergus Sub…

 

[crs1026]

The question is not whether a passenger rail connection should be restored to Cambridge (it absolutely should!), but whether extending the Milton Line is the more cost-effective way to achieve it than branching off the Kitchener Line along the Fergus Sub…

That's a fair question to debate, although if we do see a full proposal to build 2WAD GO to Milton come forward, the cost of an extension to Cambridge providing some partial service will likely not add all that much to the envelope. One would have to understand whether that service offering is any better than going via Guelph - that may depend on the configuration and timing of the service..

If you are going to run a branchline with a Stadler FLIRT, first ask yourself why a bus would not be sufficient. If you can't answer that question, then your desire to a have a train service is motivated by being a railfan (foamer) rather than wanting better transport.

Some towns and cities like Cambridge and Collingwood will only ever be the domain of busses and that should be considered okay. Even when considering an energy usage perspective, anything less than the current 12 car GO Train model likely has a low average passenger load and results in better GHG and energy efficiency per passenger mile for busses.

That's the same question that gets debated around bus vs LRT in urban settings, The answer is - yes bus will make more sense in many settings, but that does not imply that there will never be a justifiable use for FLIRT type designs.

I disagree totally with your embedded comment (if my iPad skills were better, I'd quote it) that transload is the way to serve branchline communities for freight. Transload is only economic when one assumes free use of highways to make the delivery. We should be preserving branchlines and loose-car freight infrastructure generally to get trucks off our roads. That doesn't imply that OBRY was a candidate for passenger rail (this is where the dreamers can't admit it's over in some ways) - but modest maintenance to support a branch line is much cheaper than the road network that is assumed to support communities like Orabgeville (#413 cough cough)
'
- Paul

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Whereas I’m inclined to agree on Collingwood (though only for my own lifetime), I wrote an entire Master Thesis on describing a timetable concept for the Kitchener Corridor, which would have half-hourly Semi-Express Toronto-Kitchener trains split in Guelph to serve Cambridge (and I mean all its three constituents: Hespeler, Preston and Galt) through the Fergus Sub. Conversely, extending the Milton Line to Cambridge is unrealistic because it means sharing the CP Toronto-Chicago corridor for another 50(?) km without any significant population catchment inbetween…

On that note, I have become rather fond of extending the Milton line to Guelph via the GJR to a low level platform on the river front.

And while I do like the concept of some express direct to Toronto, I'd suggest anyone focusing on those one seat rides take a look at early Metrolinx work on Waterloo Region. There's good reason to think that there is quite a bit of local ridership to be grabbed. The frequency of the shuttle option really is attractive to me in a way that one seat rides to Toronto are tough to be... Though yeah, if we could get half hourly or 15 minute east of Guelph and fill in the timetable gaps on both legs with shuttle from Guelph I'm starting to see a nearly ideal timetable for Waterloo.

 

[nfitz]

The question is not whether a passenger rail connection should be restored to Cambridge (it absolutely should!), but whether extending the Milton Line is the more cost-effective way to achieve it than branching off the Kitchener Line along the Fergus Sub…

Other factors in choosing rate: travel time, demand, ridership. And assumption of what the baseline is. Is this just the cost of Milton to Galt, with the assumption of 2-way all-day service?

 

[micheal_can]

If HFR is built there would be no incentive or reason to let slow stopping GO trains on an express line to hold up other traffic. Also HFR should bypass Peterborough if it is at all interested in having competitive travel times.

But moving on, I'm going to cross-pollinate from this thread to highlight something important:

Orangeville-Brampton Railway (OBRY)

If Brampton really wanted to ensure it didn’t come back, putting new sewer/stormwater infra under the alignment might be a more firm way to say “stop dreaming, it’s over”

urbantoronto.ca

If you are going to run a branchline with a Stadler FLIRT, first ask yourself why a bus would not be sufficient. If you can't answer that question, then your desire to a have a train service is motivated by being a railfan (foamer) rather than wanting better transport.

Some towns and cities like Cambridge and Collingwood will only ever be the domain of busses and that should be considered okay. Even when considering an energy usage perspective, anything less than the current 12 car GO Train model likely has a low average passenger load and results in better GHG and energy efficiency per passenger mile for busses.

If your goal is that at that singular station, it fills a 10-12 car train for each of the times, then no station except Union fits that bill. However, if the question is would more people ride it than take a bus, that is a better question. The problem for Collingwood is there is no GO bus there. At least with Peterborough, there is. For the Peterborough GO line, it would likely have stations along the northern part of Durham region. However, maybe with Via, if they have early enough times for commuting, that is all that is needed.

 

[micheal_can]

There's an alphabet soup of planning regions; Greater Toronto Area, Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area, Golden Horseshoe, Greater Golden Horseshoe. I'm not sure they are all still relevant, but those that are used in government planning documents have a defined area.

When I was younger, and much less informed, I thought if GO went to it, it was the GTA.To be fair,I only knew of 2 major divisions in the province Northern and Southern Ontario. Now there is central, eastern southwestern,northeastern, northwestern, and then things like the GGH, GTA, GTHA, ad nauseam. It does help when talking on these forums to be more clear of what areas you are speaking of.

 

[Allandale25]

Any intel on this @smallspy @crs1026? Particularly Lorne's comment?